Any states finding F-Class too popular?
- Thread starter effendude
- Start date
RStewart said:
That is disconcerting. I gave up shooting competitively in around 2001 when it just stopped being fun, due in part to the other competitors' attitudes once I made Master, and the nonsense. I used to like shooting before then. The camaraderie, etc. It is my hope that I will find a good group of guys in F class, though I haven't shot a match yet. At this point I am going to shoot my best, and to have a good time. Near as I can tell it isn't a zero sum game... I do my best, you do your best. Not like for every point I gain you lose a point.
The attitude I saw a little bit of at the one match I observed was sort of like this ape suit nonsense. To me, if one must resort to ridicule of another to elevate his relative standing, he must either not be very secure in his abilities, or suffering from envy.
Longtrain
Gold $$ Contributor
When I started F Class we had one or two targets out of 15, probably around 2007, now we take up about half the targets. Early on our scores went in as LR Prone, not F Class, which caused some issues. Calls to the NRA straightened out our new classifications. All in all we get along like a family during the holidays, mostly good, but some minor squabbles.
While I've only recently moved to F-Class from XTC (service rifle), I've not noticed any animosity between the groups in the two matches (NJ & PA) that I've shot. 'Slingers' out-numbered 'supporters' about 2-to-1 at both matches and each group tends to talk mostly amongst themselves. But, that is understandable as we are generally discussing our particular discipline.
saunaking
Silver $$ Contributor
stubbicatt said:
Being fairly new to HP shooting (second year) I have limited experience to draw on. I think what may be happening with some of the "old guard" of HP shooting is that they see all of us F'ers invading their world (sharing ranges and space) and not appreciating their disciplines as well. There are so many forces in this country that want to take what we enjoy so much away, that we can't afford to be divided among ourselves. I think if we could sit down with a cold frosty after a match, most would find that the guy/gal in the other discipline was a lot like yourself. Most state associations are still run by sling shooters from what I have seen. What this tells me is that more of us need to step up and get involved with the state associations so our voice can be heard. If it weren't for F-class, I would not be shooting HP (hated getting twisted into a pretzel in the Corps), wouldn't be on this forum and would have enough money in the bank to go on a nice sheep hunt
. What I get from it is like-minded people that encourage, share information, are usually as anal-retentive as I am and are fun to be around. What I see going on in Minnesota now is a bit of envy on the part of the sling shooter board members that we have surpassed them in membership and are the growth sport in HP shooting. Get over it...be happy that there are still some of us out there to support HP shooting and keep the ranges open.The way I see it is, I'll continue to participate so long as I am enjoying myself. I would love to shoot conventional long range, but my vision is just not good enough. That I am going to shoot F open is sort of an accident anyways. I needed an excuse to build a custom accurate rifle.
stubbicatt said:
As long as I'm having fun pretty much says it all. Most clubs and responsible representatives will bend over backwards to promote the sport and the matches they toil to provide. I have always felt that since the foundation was laid prior to fclass that we should earn our keep by pit maintenance and target repairs on the work days. Our highpower director scheduled a work day last year to replace our uprights and I made sure that fclass beat them to it. We have been privileged to walk into a ready made match agenda and are the new kids on the block. I sense that they feel we are a corrosion of the sports and we must prove otherwise.
RStewart
FTR and FPR Competitor- When I Can
Let me throw something else out there. A couple of years ago we started the Field Precision Rifle matches because we saw a segment of shooters that did not fit into the NRA's structure, but they still wanted a chance to shoot competitively.
We allow brakes, suppressors, etc. and we make the matches informational and a lot of fun.
Today it was 96 degrees and we still had 23 shooters show up for the monthly match. If we had turned our back on this group of folks back then, we would have been as guilty as those that don't want F-shooters around now.
It's all about the shooters. And promoting the sport regardless of what you shoot.
We allow brakes, suppressors, etc. and we make the matches informational and a lot of fun.
Today it was 96 degrees and we still had 23 shooters show up for the monthly match. If we had turned our back on this group of folks back then, we would have been as guilty as those that don't want F-shooters around now.
It's all about the shooters. And promoting the sport regardless of what you shoot.
Hi:
I am going to preface my thoughts below by stating, I started shooting small bore and pistol, then service rifle, match rifle and International. I will end up shooting F-Class after I a get a few more parts replaced in my old body. These comments mostly pertain to the U.S., for our friends across the pond please find an "Old Guy" and take time to listen.
Every sport has growth problems. Shooting is no exception. Long ago, this all started as service rifle shooting with 45-70 rifles single shot rifles. These was the days before WW I. After WW I new rifles and cartridges took to the field. The old guys shooting black powder and 30-40's weren't happy but changed. Up to WW II service rifles (Springfield's) ruled the ranges. When High Power Match Rifles appeared on the range the Service Rifle shooters were unhappy but they adjusted and welcomed the change. When there was only High Power Over the Course, and 4 guns 600yard matches started catching on there was some friction. When NRA changed the Rules and created Mid-Range there was a friction from the 4 gun 600 yard guys and some adjusting. When F-Class was introduced, it started as match rifles with scopes for the shooters whose eyes and bodies were not as young as they once were. When this started catching on, NRA came out with the present F-Class Rules a couple years ago. We are again adjusting.
The thing everyone (shooters) forgets is you have to pay your dues just like every shooter before you. New shooters forget the "Old Guys" built most of the ranges you are shooting on. They got groups of shooters together, they personally signed mortgages to buy the land for the range and personally paid part of the mortgage every month for 5 or 10 or 15 years. They spent hundreds of hours, their weekends, their vacations building the ranges with shovels and hand tools. They took money out of their pockets to build the clubhouses, the target pits, target carriers and the target frames. They built what everyone takes for granted today.
The guys that followed them maintained what those before built. They fixed the pits, maintained the buildings, trained new shooters ran the Junior Clubs and spent their hard earned vacation time and money keeping the sport going. These guys did all this for us in the days when an extra 5 bucks was hard to come by and meant something. Today, they are the guys that run the matches and keep the sport going. These are the same guys that that fight urban sprawl and fight at the legislature to keep the High Power ranges open. These are the "Old Guys" of today who do this for another generation of shooters to come.
These are the guys that have paid their dues, that are our history and our future for shooting.
F-Class is new and just starting to learn the way. There is not a lot of investment (I'm not talking about money for rifles & equipment) in shooting as a sport as of yet. F-Class is coming and it is growing. Where would the F-Class shooters be if the High Power Shooters didn't put F-Class in their Match Programs and welcome you at the ranges? The history of High Power Shooting is change, the growing pains will go away.
A lot (not all) of the F-Class guys haven't paid their dues yet, they haven't been hollered at for slow pit service times by High Masters, you haven't learned to count the shots as they come into the pit on your target, haven't learned to come early to help set up the matches and break it down at the end of the day. Many haven't had the fun of rebuilding target frames or fixing targets carriers or the hundred other things it takes to maintain a range, run a match and to keep a sport alive for over a hundred years as the "Old Guys" have.
F-Class, like every other change to High Power is learning and High Power is adapting. This is nothing new, it is the history of High Power Shooting. In a few years you will have learned and paid your dues. Soon some of you are going to be the "Old Guys", the guys maintaining the ranges and running the matches. You are going to be the guys looking at the new kids with different looking rifles, wondering why their are lasers on them, wondering about their new calibers, being frustrated by slow pit service, frustrated by shooters coming late to a match and leaving before the range is cleaned up.
The new "Wonder Gun Class" guys are going to complain about being misunderstood, not having awards or enough trophies, not being treated fairly, complaining there are more of us so everyone should change for us. They are going to feel that way until they learn, until they pay their dues. Just like you "Paid Your Dues" too and became the "Old Guys".
It is the history of our sport, some day it will be up to you to pass shooting on to the next generation, to help them pay their dues. It turns out in the end, that High Power Shooting is bigger then any one of us because it is all of us combined over the last 100 plus years.
Respectfully Submitted,
George Minerich
I am going to preface my thoughts below by stating, I started shooting small bore and pistol, then service rifle, match rifle and International. I will end up shooting F-Class after I a get a few more parts replaced in my old body. These comments mostly pertain to the U.S., for our friends across the pond please find an "Old Guy" and take time to listen.
Every sport has growth problems. Shooting is no exception. Long ago, this all started as service rifle shooting with 45-70 rifles single shot rifles. These was the days before WW I. After WW I new rifles and cartridges took to the field. The old guys shooting black powder and 30-40's weren't happy but changed. Up to WW II service rifles (Springfield's) ruled the ranges. When High Power Match Rifles appeared on the range the Service Rifle shooters were unhappy but they adjusted and welcomed the change. When there was only High Power Over the Course, and 4 guns 600yard matches started catching on there was some friction. When NRA changed the Rules and created Mid-Range there was a friction from the 4 gun 600 yard guys and some adjusting. When F-Class was introduced, it started as match rifles with scopes for the shooters whose eyes and bodies were not as young as they once were. When this started catching on, NRA came out with the present F-Class Rules a couple years ago. We are again adjusting.
The thing everyone (shooters) forgets is you have to pay your dues just like every shooter before you. New shooters forget the "Old Guys" built most of the ranges you are shooting on. They got groups of shooters together, they personally signed mortgages to buy the land for the range and personally paid part of the mortgage every month for 5 or 10 or 15 years. They spent hundreds of hours, their weekends, their vacations building the ranges with shovels and hand tools. They took money out of their pockets to build the clubhouses, the target pits, target carriers and the target frames. They built what everyone takes for granted today.
The guys that followed them maintained what those before built. They fixed the pits, maintained the buildings, trained new shooters ran the Junior Clubs and spent their hard earned vacation time and money keeping the sport going. These guys did all this for us in the days when an extra 5 bucks was hard to come by and meant something. Today, they are the guys that run the matches and keep the sport going. These are the same guys that that fight urban sprawl and fight at the legislature to keep the High Power ranges open. These are the "Old Guys" of today who do this for another generation of shooters to come.
These are the guys that have paid their dues, that are our history and our future for shooting.
F-Class is new and just starting to learn the way. There is not a lot of investment (I'm not talking about money for rifles & equipment) in shooting as a sport as of yet. F-Class is coming and it is growing. Where would the F-Class shooters be if the High Power Shooters didn't put F-Class in their Match Programs and welcome you at the ranges? The history of High Power Shooting is change, the growing pains will go away.
A lot (not all) of the F-Class guys haven't paid their dues yet, they haven't been hollered at for slow pit service times by High Masters, you haven't learned to count the shots as they come into the pit on your target, haven't learned to come early to help set up the matches and break it down at the end of the day. Many haven't had the fun of rebuilding target frames or fixing targets carriers or the hundred other things it takes to maintain a range, run a match and to keep a sport alive for over a hundred years as the "Old Guys" have.
F-Class, like every other change to High Power is learning and High Power is adapting. This is nothing new, it is the history of High Power Shooting. In a few years you will have learned and paid your dues. Soon some of you are going to be the "Old Guys", the guys maintaining the ranges and running the matches. You are going to be the guys looking at the new kids with different looking rifles, wondering why their are lasers on them, wondering about their new calibers, being frustrated by slow pit service, frustrated by shooters coming late to a match and leaving before the range is cleaned up.
The new "Wonder Gun Class" guys are going to complain about being misunderstood, not having awards or enough trophies, not being treated fairly, complaining there are more of us so everyone should change for us. They are going to feel that way until they learn, until they pay their dues. Just like you "Paid Your Dues" too and became the "Old Guys".
It is the history of our sport, some day it will be up to you to pass shooting on to the next generation, to help them pay their dues. It turns out in the end, that High Power Shooting is bigger then any one of us because it is all of us combined over the last 100 plus years.
Respectfully Submitted,
George Minerich
280man said:
Regional Matches:
The last correspondence I received from Sherri Judd (I am going from memory and do not have the letter in front of me) outlined what it takes to get all the regional medallions - High power, F-Open and F-TR. They base the amount sent to you on last years total amount of shooters. You need to have 8 (? IIRC) in F-TR or F-Open or sling to receive G/S/B medallions for each Division. If you have more than enough shooters to meet the NRA's expectations but did not receive the needed amount of medallions, call them. I did and they sent me what was needed.
Approved matches:
As a match director, I do my best to break out F-TR and F-Open at the smaller matches. If there are at least 3 F-TR or 3 F-open, they have a viable Division and they are competing against themselves. There have been times where we have had 2 F-Open and 15 F-TR or vise versa, and they do get lumped together. I can not justify awards for the winner of a division of 2 shooters. FWIW, one of our local F-TR shooters puts up scores in our large regional that challenges the top 1 or 2 F-open shooters.
As an aside:
Interestingly, I see a similar disparity in the sling side that is dealt with differently. There are those shooting Service Rifles and those shooting Any/any going head to head in the LR matches. Not fair, but that is the way it has been for a long time and that is the choice a Service Rifle shooter makes.
My 2 cents
PS: Excellent comments by MNshooter in post #29.
RStewart said:
Simply put and very well said Rick.
+1 about George. From what I have read about him and heard form others, he is one of the founding fathers of MN shooting. Paid his "dues" to the sport many times over. I am fairly new to f-class, just 4 years and haven't even come close to "paying my dues". I will continue that endeavor for many years to come. I try not to get too wrapped up in all the emotions that come with any sport. Enjoy it for what it is....life is way too short. But everything has growing pains and it ALWAYS works out in the end. The journey can be difficult at times but one always gets a good chuckle looking back on it years down the road. This will all pass and years from now maybe we too can say we've paid our dues! Eric in DL
effendude
Gold $$ Contributor
Ok,
I didn't mean to sound like a baby here. I have very thick skin and I usually have no trouble differentiating worthwhile issues from things that don't matter. Maybe the issue has been smoldering long enough that I had to vent. Most of my frustration and anger comes from having to make excuses year after year while explaining to the new shooters that the attitudes displayed by some shooters doesn't represent the shooters as a whole. There maybe isn't many negative guys, but the negative ones are very vocal in the disdain.
George has been a great supporter of all shooting in the state of MN. His energy and passion are what got me started in HP years ago. None of the shooting success in MN would be possible without his leadership. I don't believe that this issue has anything to do with "paying dues" as new shooters. It is out of respect for the guys and gals who created these ranges that I continue to promote the sports of HP shooting. The few OTC/sling shooters who are new to the state seem to have no problem with the old guard. I didn't when I was a newbie. Most of us are involved very much in our home ranges. F-Class is a key factor in the long term survival of ranges and HP shooting as a whole. The clubs that don't promote and encourage all shooting sports will not survive.
My desire it not to replace HP or any other sport. F-Class was a discipline created specifically to allow older shooters with challenges to continue to shoot. The discipline has also evolved into the ultimate pursuit of equipment, ammo and wind reading skills in my opinion. George, like many of us, are excited that the shooting sports are growing in MN and across the country, regardless of the discipline. I just wish more shared the same sentiment.
Scott
I didn't mean to sound like a baby here. I have very thick skin and I usually have no trouble differentiating worthwhile issues from things that don't matter. Maybe the issue has been smoldering long enough that I had to vent. Most of my frustration and anger comes from having to make excuses year after year while explaining to the new shooters that the attitudes displayed by some shooters doesn't represent the shooters as a whole. There maybe isn't many negative guys, but the negative ones are very vocal in the disdain.
George has been a great supporter of all shooting in the state of MN. His energy and passion are what got me started in HP years ago. None of the shooting success in MN would be possible without his leadership. I don't believe that this issue has anything to do with "paying dues" as new shooters. It is out of respect for the guys and gals who created these ranges that I continue to promote the sports of HP shooting. The few OTC/sling shooters who are new to the state seem to have no problem with the old guard. I didn't when I was a newbie. Most of us are involved very much in our home ranges. F-Class is a key factor in the long term survival of ranges and HP shooting as a whole. The clubs that don't promote and encourage all shooting sports will not survive.
My desire it not to replace HP or any other sport. F-Class was a discipline created specifically to allow older shooters with challenges to continue to shoot. The discipline has also evolved into the ultimate pursuit of equipment, ammo and wind reading skills in my opinion. George, like many of us, are excited that the shooting sports are growing in MN and across the country, regardless of the discipline. I just wish more shared the same sentiment.
Scott
I think I shoot in the same matches as AR-Shooter, DE,NJ,south east PA. The sling guys always outnumber us but things are always nice and fun never heard a bad comment from either side.
I have only been doing it a couple seasons and dont know if that was always the case.
I came from BR so I shoot open but will be making a foray into TR soon to see how the other lives.
But F'ers and F-Troop that there's funny and I don't care who you are.
Larry
I have only been doing it a couple seasons and dont know if that was always the case.
I came from BR so I shoot open but will be making a foray into TR soon to see how the other lives.
But F'ers and F-Troop that there's funny and I don't care who you are.
Larry
It is my most sincere wish that with this open conversation about Scotts concerns that they can be brought to light and resolved. I have inside knowledge of his situation and he is justified with this post. It is very frustrating to work so hard as he does and not gain hard earned ground. The old guard has to give also in this situation for this to work.
PS, I am definitely not mentioning F troop to our guys.
PS, I am definitely not mentioning F troop to our guys.
p scully
Gold $$ Contributor
mike, respect is earned not given. too many of the new f-class guys don't lift a finger to help out at their local clubs. they just show on match day and expect to be treated like they own the place. a few of us have worked very hard to be accepted.
at nsrc where I am a member the old guard as you call them has come a long way from the days when we were treated like second class shooters. it took time. we had to earn it. but, things are getting better. threads like this do not help. what does help is showing up for work days, volunteering to help at a match, or something as simple as walking down the line and talking some these sling shooters. they are just like us, burning powder and punching holes in paper targets. they are not like us in the sense that they earned their keep long before we ever showed up.
I give scott a lot of credit for all he has done to grow the sport at elk river. I would like to see more of his shooters travel around to other ranges and show some support for the rest of our clubs like we do for theirs.
all of this whining will only irritate the "old guard" and set us all back. scully.
at nsrc where I am a member the old guard as you call them has come a long way from the days when we were treated like second class shooters. it took time. we had to earn it. but, things are getting better. threads like this do not help. what does help is showing up for work days, volunteering to help at a match, or something as simple as walking down the line and talking some these sling shooters. they are just like us, burning powder and punching holes in paper targets. they are not like us in the sense that they earned their keep long before we ever showed up.
I give scott a lot of credit for all he has done to grow the sport at elk river. I would like to see more of his shooters travel around to other ranges and show some support for the rest of our clubs like we do for theirs.
all of this whining will only irritate the "old guard" and set us all back. scully.
RStewart
FTR and FPR Competitor- When I Can
effendude said:
At my very first service rifle match I was eager to learn, so I asked a HM where should I start. His answer "just shoot." Well, that didn't exactly make me feel welcome. Fortunately, I was squadded with another HM and he answered all of my multitude of questions. So, next match whom do you think I asked questions of? As I moved to Prone and then to F-Class that second person continued to coach and encourage me. I had every setback you could have as I went along, but he kept me from giving up. He still coaches me today when I have questions.
Many talk about shooters having to pay their dues and I agree. As one HM said to me "until you get to be at least Expert, you aren't in the conversation." You have to earn a classification and for me, at least, it's about the journey. Learning to reload accurately, wind reading and all the other nuances that come with "getting there." But, like the old apprentice programs, I believe the older, seasoned shooters need to pass on/mentor the new shooters. A first match can be daunting to a new shooter and feeling ostracized because he is new or doesn't shoot this class or that class can turn them off and away.
F-Open, FTR, Prone, Service rifle, X ring size, etc. are all parts of the big picture called "Competitive Shooting." So what if I use a big front rest or a bipod or strap into a jacket and shoot open sights? Does it really matter? Does it make me better than you because I may be a HM and you're just starting out? Everyone started somewhere.
The ones that feel a need to try to drive a wedge between the shooting disciplines or put others down are doing it why? Ego? A feeling of empowerment?
Nothing makes me happier than seeing a new shooter score that first X. Whether they are shooting F-Class or Prone. They come off the line with a grin from ear to ear. I give them a High Five and congratulate them. As do others. It's what it's all about, at least to me.
A lot of folks just want to show up and shoot. They don't do much to help get ready for the match. They want to stand around and BS with all the other shooters. We solved that propblem by telling the group if folks got there early and helped get set up we could get an early start (8:30AM). If not, flags and targets would not be put up until after registration had been completed. This would delay the start until around 9:00 or later. The first match after this was announced they didn't believe us. Needless to say after that match we start at 8:30 now.
We also have a workday before the Regional and State matches to reface all the targets. We do the HP and XTC targets at the same time. That part we have done pretty well on attendance for this.
The clubs that don't promote and encourage all shooting sports will not survive. - So very true.
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