f class loads how good MUST they be?

[ttfreestyle]

do yall have a set goal you look for before you deem your rifle ready for comp(testing at 600 yards on a calm day)? what is the group size at 600 you consider a match load? I realize we all want our rifles to shoot tiny groups but at what point do we decide to shoot and have fun (and get better at reading the conditions)? Is a half moa load good enough to win with a good shooter(which i am not yet)?

also what is the maximum vertical you like to see (again testing loads at 600 )? thanks

 

[lmorrison17]

I only have a 100yd range for testing and if I can consistently shoot groups .3 and under I'm happy. I do pretty well with that at local 600yd BR and F-class.
Larry

 

[HPMike800]

"(which i am not yet)"

That's it really. 1/2 to 5/8 min is plenty for most f-class shooters. Learn to call every shot and you will know if the load/gun shoots inside you or not. Everything evolves from there.

Mike

 

[Steve Blair]

I usually shoot one of two rifles in F-Class. A Savage Target .308 in F-T/R and a Stiller Viper SS 6BR in F-Open. The Viper is usually shot in mid-range matches but I have shot it at 1000. Benchrest, the Savage will shoot .3-.4" five shot groups at 100 with either Berger 185 or 210 BT-LR. The Viper will shoot .1-.2" at the same distance with Berger 105 VLD.

My 1000 yard scores are better with the Viper, but not twice as good. The wind at Camp Pendleton still blows me around with either rifle. This is a long way of saying that the equipment should be as good as you can afford or make it, but the more important factor is how well you can shoot. Mike's point about calling shots is crucial. You must know when you drop a point and why. Otherwise, it is just guess work. Last week, I shot a 198-9X in early morning, relatively calm conditions with the Viper at 1000. That was the best F-Class score of five matches. Clearly, the Viper is capable of an X every time. It's me that is not.

 

[Scott Harris]

If you can shoot a 1/2MOA 10-shot group at 300 yards or farther in steady conditions, then I think your ammo is good to go. I think focusing on elevation is more practical for load assessment.

 

[Travelor]

The X ring on all F-Class targets that I know of is 1/2 MOA in diameter. I work to get the gun/load to be able to shoot all X's.

This way I get feed back as to me, and how I shoot/read wind.

George

 

[Steve Blair]

The X ring on all F-Class targets that I know of is 1/2 MOA in diameter. I work to get the gun/load to be able to shoot all X's.

This way I get feed back as to me, and how I shoot/read wind.

George

They are actually all a little under, George. But I agree fully with your statement. The more confidence that the gun is accurate, the better the judgements about wind and technique.

300 yard X:	1.42"	.452 MOA
500 yard X:	2.50"	.477 MOA
600 yard X:	3.00"	.477 MOA
1000 yard X:	5.00"	.477 MOA

 

[Flouncer]

X-Ring

The X ring on all F-Class targets that I know of is 1/2 MOA in diameter. I work to get the gun/load to be able to shoot all X's.

This is from the NRA site:

4.7 800, 900, and 1000 Yard Target
(a) NRA No. LR -
Aiming Black (inches) Rings in White (inches)
X ring . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10.00
10 ring . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20.00
9 ring . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30.00
8 ring . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 44.00
7 ring . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 60.00
6 area . . . . . . . . . . . . 72x72 square

As one of our illustrious Leaders once said, It depends on what your definition of "is" is. This is NRA fullbore Prone, with .308/5.56 and Open class.
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/rules/fullbore_07.pdf

The NRA rules and F-class sites were unavailable this AM. The Above is from 2007.

 

[Steve Blair]

The F-Class rules are attached.

 

[Erik Cortina]

The X ring on all F-Class targets that I know of is 1/2 MOA in diameter. I work to get the gun/load to be able to shoot all X's.

This way I get feed back as to me, and how I shoot/read wind.

George

Are you successful to achieve that kind of accuracy at 1,000 yards? I find that easy to do at all other distances, but at 1K it gets pretty tough!

I think if your gun can keep all your shots inside the 10 ring at 1K consistently, you should be happy.

 

[UltraBR30]

F-Class -- 800, 900, and 1000 Yard Target
NRA No LR-FC - F-Class Target Center based on the LR target for use at 1000 yards.. .
X-Ring 5"
10 Ring 10"
9 Ring 20"
8 Ring 30"
7 Ring 44"
6 Ring 60"
5 Area 72" x 72"
Target Size 72" x 72"

 

[Steve Blair]

I think that George was referring to the gun's absolute accuracy, absent shooter and environmental factors.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I understand Steve, but how do you shoot a gun at 1,000 yards without a shooter or enviromental factors? How do you find out what the guns absolute accuracy is?

 

[Steve Blair]

Well, obviously we do not have 1000 yard tunnels. I shoot for group, normally 300 yards, over BR flags on as calm a day as San Diego allows. If the gun will group at 300, it will group at 1000. Initial load development and validation is done at 100 yards over a chronograph, providing the velocity variation data I need and that can be correlated against group size.

Now, if you would just build a nice, concrete 1000 yard tunnel in west Texas someplace, I would come and visit you.

 

[Lbart]

To get back to ttfreestyle questions. I have shot F-Open since 1999. Based on my experience shooting at 1,000 yards, including US F Class Team tryouts the VERY BEST shooters can keep 75% of their shots inside 5" for elevation under good actual match conditions. There is no way anyone can read the atmospheric changes over 1,000 yards of varying terrain for 20 shots unless there is a dead calm and no mirage. Note: I am not talking about BR machine gunning, but pull and mark F-Class style matches. I develop my loads at 300 meters and verify at 1k. I have found if your rifle will shoot groups of 1/3rd or less moa at 300 meters while chronographing and has a small SD (single digit ES) it will provide half moa or less at 1k with the best bullets available.

Ttfreestyle, keep in mind the ten ring (I try to keep my shots in it) is widest from 3 to 9 o'clock. Any shot higher than water line (0.0" elevation) makes the ring smaller and your score less. A reliable 1/2 moa rifle is very usable, but smaller is always better.
Larry Bartholome

 

[Laurie]

One way of looking at the question is to see what the 'opposition' are doing. The annual F-Class European Championship meeting which is also GB-FCA league round No.7 and the final domestic round of the season is held over the first weekend of November at Bisley each year. We have practice on Thursday, individual matches on Friday / Saturday and team matches on Sunday.

Last year's fixture didn't see any really bad conditions but had a tricky 7 o'clock light to medium strength and variable direction wind on Friday that gradually veered around and became a light but very variable wind from around 11 o'clock on the Saturday and a light fishtailing headwind 11-1 o'clock for the team matches on Sunday morning. Saturday morning saw brief but very heavy rain with strong squally winds pass through giving very rough conditions and dropping scores badly for one detail (top F/TR shooters) and also affected one of the other two but not so badly. So, not really difficult but more than easy enough to drop points especially at 1,000yd. There was one 800yd match and two 900s, all 2+15 and two 1,000yd matches both 2+20, a total of 85 score shots. Team matches were 2+15 at 900 and 1,000yd. Only one detail had what you'd really call 'easy conditions', the Open shooters at 800yd on Saturday detail 1 before the rain got going which saw no fewer than 19 shooters get a 'possible', the best V (X) scores being two shooters on 10.

Overall, there were 151 entrants who put scores in, 87 F Class and 64 F/TR mostly from the the UK but with participants from 11 other countries from Ireland in the West to Ukraine in the East, six of them fielding (a) national team(s). With all top GB shooters there including F Class world champion Gary Costello and F/TR world champion Russell Simmonds plus the best in Europe, you had a quality field.

Scores?
Ex a possible 425.85v aggregate (our Bull scores 5 remember) they were:

F Class ...................... 412.37v (Grant Taylor, Scotland). 21 shooters exceeded 400.
F/TR ......................... 396.27v (Russell Simmonds, GB). 13 shooters exceeded 385.

Assuming all Grant's dropped points were 4s (unlikely), that's 72 ex 85 shots into 1-MOA and 37 ex 85 into half-MOA over 15 x 800yd, 30 x 900yd, and 40 x 1,000yd. Well approximately into those group sizes as with the same target centres used at all three distances, they're a little larger than 1/0.5-MOA at 900/800yd. Grant shoots a .284 Shehane with Berger 180s, but not at absolutely max MVs.

In the team matches, one shooter ex 92 taking part shot a 'possible' (150 points) Scandinavian visitor Christer Jacobssen shooting a 6XC in the 'Sixes' team.

That's what you, your rifle, and your ammunition have to achieve to be at the top of the leader board in long-range matches. Scores, particularly in F/TR, continue to improve year on year too.

The other thing to note in these scores is that shooters are squadded two per target and shoot alternately in the individual matches - no rapid strings while conditions hold. Team matches use strings.

Laurie,
York, England

 

[Steve Blair]

There is no way anyone can read the atmospheric changes over 1,000 yards of varying terrain for 20 shots unless there is a dead calm and no mirage.

Larry, I watched Danny Biggs do what you say cannot be done.

 

[Lbart]

Steve,
I was there also. Danny was really in the zone when he shot those two 200-15x's. He could do no wrong during those strings. Dan is a member of Team Berger and I am Team Captain. The point is during those strings he hit the X-ring 75% of the time. If you average the all the strings he shot during the championships including 30 shots at 800/900 he averaged only 52.4% of X's. When I wrote that statement I was discussing X-ring elevation. There are always exceptions to everything. I am sure Dan will agree with my comments.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I agree with Larry, since I have yet to see or hear about someone shoot 1/2 MOA at 1,000 yards even for one string.

So, back to my previous statement. If your gun can keep 100% of the shots inside the 10 ring vertically at 1,000 yards, be happy.

 

[Steve Blair]

I know you were there and who you are, Larry, and agree with the general thrust of your statement. My sole disagreement was the absolute nature of the quoted sentence. It is easily demonstrable that it is not correct. When you say that there are always exceptions, the problem was that your previous statement did not allow for them. It makes no difference whether Danny or Erik agree or not. My only point was that you made an indefensible statement. I am sorry if you thought it was personal.