Experiences running 223 in F/TR

[zanemoseley]

I currently have a 308 Tikka T3 Sporter which is a nice rifle but decided the 308 is really on the edge of how much recoil is pleasant to shoot. I shoot for fun, it's not my job so I'd like to have fun doing it. So I'm selling the Tikka as it would cost more than it's worth to convert to 223.

I'm thinking of running a Savage F/TR 223 this next year while I wait on custom parts for a F Open build. I know some consider the 223 a disadvantage over the 308 but with newer bullets the gap is getting pretty small.

So what experiences have you guys had running 223 in F/TR, was it rewarding or just frustrating?

 

[memilanuk]

For mid-range, its great. Mild recoil, accurate, affordable. For long-range... I've heard it can work... I've read about it... the few times I've ever encountered someone who had gotten it to really work @ distance had put an insane amount of time and effort into it. Granted, with the much reduced cost of bullets, brass and powder relative to a .308 Win running heavy bullets... that sort of testing can be done without unduly wasting your competitive barrel life.

FWIW, the 12 F/TRs I've encountered shot really, really well with Berger 80.5 or 82gn bullets. The chamber just isn't really throated long enough to push the 90s the way people seem to want to. A decent gunsmith with a uni-throater can tweak that easily enough, though.

 

[zanemoseley]

Thanks for the feedback, I would definitely limit this rifle to 600 yards. I've heard the 90 grain Berger's can be pretty difficult to load so it doesn't break my heart to stay away from them.

 

[ab_bentley]

Thanks for the feedback, I would definitely limit this rifle to 600 yards. I've heard the 90 grain Berger's can be pretty difficult to load so it doesn't break my heart to stay away from them.

75gr Amax can run the distance too. Make sure you have the freebore(~.165") to get your case capacity back.

Adam

 

[USMCDOC]

View attachment 992518

75gr Amax can run the distance too. Make sure you have the freebore(~.165") to get your case capacity back.

Adam

Yes.. i have shot a 599-?? (don't remember) at 600 with the 75Amax.. that is one sweet bullet at 900 yards and in..

 

[zanemoseley]

What is the freebore from the factory?

 

[ab_bentley]

What is the freebore from the factory?

I've seen as little as .025" and as much as .200"

 

[zanemoseley]

I've seen as little as .025" and as much as .200"

So you've seen that big of a variance in the Savage 12 f/tr or just on 223's in general?

 

[Mozella]

.......... snip....... The chamber just isn't really throated long enough to push the 90s the way people seem to want to. A decent gunsmith with a uni-throater can tweak that easily enough, though.

No need for a gunsmith. You can adjust the throat yourself easily enough with a Uni-Throater and you have the advantage that you aren't being paid for your work; therefore, you can take as much time as you like and make the job perfect. it's easy. Just be aware that you're hardly removing any material at all, so don't get carried away.

Measure, measure, and measure some more. Then take a turn or two with the throater and then remeasure, remeasure, remeasure. You get the idea. Just be careful 'cause you can't go back.

To answer the OP's question, I like to shoot F/TR with a .223 for the previously mentioned reasons, even though the .308 is probably a better choice. The Berger 90gr VLDs work well at 600 yards, but you must work hard on the quality of your hand loads to be successful with a .223 shooting VLD's in F/TR. On the other hand, it's fun to beat your pals who shoot .308's by using a little "girly gun".

 

[benchracer]

For use out to 600 yards, I run the 75 AMAX in a 5.56 chamber with a 24" 9 twist barrel (Marginal for this bullet, but it shoots accurately. 8 twist would be a better choice). 8208 XBR is my go to powder. The .223/5.56 is a good choice for mid-range F-T/R. Easy to shoot, easy to load for, and inexpensive to feed.

 

[Ned Ludd]

The following were all shot in the last 13 months using a .223/90 VLDs:

Needless to say, I'm pretty pleased with the .223/90 VLD combo.

As far as being difficult to load, search through this forum using the query "90 VLDs". You will find more good info than you can shake a stick at regarding how to get them to shoot.

The short version is, you want the 223 Rem ISSF reamer from PTG that has 0.169" freebore. Your COAL will [roughly] be in the 2.630" to 2.650" range. Using a 30" 7-twist barrel ( a 6.5-twist might be even a tick better, but not absolutely necessary), shoot for approximately 2815-2825 fps with Varget and Lapua brass, 2840-2850 fps with H4895 and Lapua brass. Brass life with Varget is pretty reasonable. Brass life with H4895 will be 3-4 firings. The real key is seating depth. Most find about .010" into the lands is optimal. A few have found about .005" off the lands (fairly close to touching) works best, and the fewest of the few (including myself) are jumping them about .015" to .020". So there you have the chamber, target velocity ranges with two commonly-used powders, and the most likely seating depth regions to test. Short of having someone else load and test them, it doesn't get much easier than that.

Final note - with the 0.169 freebore chamber, you can still shoot 80 gr bullets such as the 80.5 Fullbore very well, although they will be seated fairly far out in the neck. The opposite is not true; i.e. if you try to load the 90s in a chamber optimized for the 80 gr bullets with something like .100" to .130" freebore, you will be giving up way too much velocity (and effectively, the major advantage of using the 90s). There is nothing wrong with using the 80 gr bullets in F-TR. However, even though you can push them faster than the 90s, the BC deficit simply cannot be made up by increased velocity. At 600 yds, the 90 VLDs at 2850 fps will keep up with (or shoot inside) most any typical 185 Juggernaut loads in the .308. They will be at a disadvantage against the 200+ gr offerings in 30 cal, but that shouldn't be a big surprise. The almost complete lack of recoil makes the precision possible with a .223/90 VLD combo insanely good. When the wind comes up, you have to be much, much better at wind calls when using 80 gr bullets in the .223.

 

[ab_bentley]

So you've seen that big of a variance in the Savage 12 f/tr or just on 223's in general?

In general.

 

[zanemoseley]

So I know how to measure OAL with a gauge and case gauges but have no idea how to measure freebore, anyone have a minor advice on how to measure.

 

[Ned Ludd]

If you dont have the reamer print, it isn't so easy for most to do accurately without the proper tools. However, without any tools at all you can get a pretty good idea by seating a bullet of known dimensions at "touching" in a dummy round. That will give you a fairly rough idea of the amount of freebore. More importantly, you can observe where the bullet base and boattail/bearing surface junction are in relation to the neck/shoulder junction of the case by simply holding a second bullet from the same lot alongside for visual comparison. For a long bullet, you can get a very good idea whether the entire boattail is sunk way down below the neck/shoulder junction of the case, or for a short bullet, whether there is enough bullet shank left in the neck so that it will be held sufficiently tightly. There are no hard and fast dimensions for the exact minimum amount bullet shank that should be in the neck, nor for how far down past the neck/shoulder junction the boattail/bearing surface can go before you start giving up such a significant amount of case volume that you're likely to have issues with increased pressure and/or reduced velocity.

As an example, the boattail/bearing surface of the 90 VLDs in my load that is ~.018" off the lands is just barely above the neck/shoulder junction. For someone seating the same bullet at ~.010" into the lands, it would be about .028" farther up the neck.

Ideally, you'd like the bullet boattail/bearing surface junction to be somewhere in the range from slightly above the neck/shoulder junction to about halfway up the neck or so (i.e from slightly above where the base of the bullet is eating up usable case volume to slightly short of where the bullet won't be held firmly enough in the neck without increasing neck tension). A good load can be developed anywhere within that range and your eye is more than sensitive enough to discriminate the differences from your dummy rounds. The only requirement is that you have a few pieces of prepped brass and a few bullets of the desired type.

Alternatively, if you use Quickload you can input the values measured from the dummy rounds, along with case length and lot-specific bullet OAL values, and the program will return actual "numerical" measurements. The problem with this approach is that QL uses COAL, not CBTO measurements. So lot-specific bullet OAL variance will affect the output, as will using pointed bullets, which are generally a fair bit longer than unpointed bullets.

 

[Mozella]

So I know how to measure OAL with a gauge and case gauges but have no idea how to measure freebore, anyone have a minor advice on how to measure.

Chamber casting metal isn't very expensive and it melts at such a low temperature that you can melt it with a heat gun. Plug the bore with a patch just ahead of where the rifling starts and pour in the melted bismuth. There are several YouTube videos to guide you. Pop out the casting and grab your calipers.

Warning: Don't spill any molten metal on your bare feet.

 

[ej3rd]

I just put together a .223 midrange (500yd) Savage using their single shot action. I used a Shilen pre-fit, 26" select match barrel, 1:7 twist chambered with the PTG .223 ISSF reamer. I believe it's basically a Remington match chamber with a 0.252 neck and 0.169 freebore. I shoot the Berger 90gr VLDs tipped with a Whidden tipping die seated just touching the lands (testing proved that was the best for this rig). My CBTO is 3.05". The cases are fully match prepped Lapua and I use 25.5gr of Power Pro 2000MR powder.

I only have two matches on the rifle, about 180 shots total (testing & matches) so it's not a fully developed rig yet. Anyway, last time out I shot a 441/20X out of a possible 450/45X. The winner shot 442/20X with a .308. The .223 is outstanding as a midrange rig. Lower cost, less powder, less recoil, very competitive at midrange. Highly recommended, I'm having a "blast" with it!!!

 

[jsthntn247]

The following were all shot in the last 13 months using a .223/90 VLDs:

Needless to say, I'm pretty pleased with the .223/90 VLD combo.

As far as being difficult to load, search through this forum using the query "90 VLDs". You will find more good info than you can shake a stick at regarding how to get them to shoot.

The short version is, you want the 223 Rem ISSF reamer from PTG that has 0.169" freebore. Your COAL will [roughly] be in the 2.630" to 2.650" range. Using a 30" 7-twist barrel ( a 6.5-twist might be even a tick better, but not absolutely necessary), shoot for approximately 2815-2825 fps with Varget and Lapua brass, 2840-2850 fps with H4895 and Lapua brass. Brass life with Varget is pretty reasonable. Brass life with H4895 will be 3-4 firings. The real key is seating depth. Most find about .010" into the lands is optimal. A few have found about .005" off the lands (fairly close to touching) works best, and the fewest of the few (including myself) are jumping them about .015" to .020". So there you have the chamber, target velocity ranges with two commonly-used powders, and the most likely seating depth regions to test. Short of having someone else load and test them, it doesn't get much easier than that.

Final note - with the 0.169 freebore chamber, you can still shoot 80 gr bullets such as the 80.5 Fullbore very well, although they will be seated fairly far out in the neck. The opposite is not true; i.e. if you try to load the 90s in a chamber optimized for the 80 gr bullets with something like .100" to .130" freebore, you will be giving up way too much velocity (and effectively, the major advantage of using the 90s). There is nothing wrong with using the 80 gr bullets in F-TR. However, even though you can push them faster than the 90s, the BC deficit simply cannot be made up by increased velocity. At 600 yds, the 90 VLDs at 2850 fps will keep up with (or shoot inside) most any typical 185 Juggernaut loads in the .308. They will be at a disadvantage against the 200+ gr offerings in 30 cal, but that shouldn't be a big surprise. The almost complete lack of recoil makes the precision possible with a .223/90 VLD combo insanely good. When the wind comes up, you have to be much, much better at wind calls when using 80 gr bullets in the .223.

Is that the bipod and rear bag you use during matches?

 

[Ned Ludd]

Yessir. I'm an [old school] bag squeezer. I have a Duplin bipod and Flexpod, and a very nice custom Edgewood rear bag, both of which I've used in matches. My scores shooting that "style" weren't bad in any way. However, I've always liked the feel of the McMillan A5 stock, and the angled toe of the A5 causes the muzzle to rise significantly during the recoil impulse. In order to bring the rifle back on target, I have to push it forward after each shot, which drives me insane. So I've always come back to the LRA bipod/large bean bag combo.

For me, the results have been satisfactory with that setup. If I want to switch over to one of my "free recoil" bipod/rear bag setups, I will either have to switch stocks to something that has a flat toe, or install some type of bag rider on the A5 stocks. I've thought about going that route from time to time, but until/unless I have good evidence my scores are suffering from my old school setup, I haven't really had sufficient motivation to do it yet.

 

[AR Shooter]

Is this the correct uni-throater for the .223?
http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/thro...3-specify_reamer_caliber-22_cal_223_cal_556mm

 

[jsthntn247]

Yessir. I'm an [old school] bag squeezer. I have a Duplin bipod and Flexpod, and a very nice custom Edgewood rear bag, both of which I've used in matches. My scores shooting that "style" weren't bad in any way. However, I've always liked the feel of the McMillan A5 stock, and the angled toe of the A5 causes the muzzle to rise significantly during the recoil impulse. In order to bring the rifle back on target, I have to push it forward after each shot, which drives me insane. So I've always come back to the LRA bipod/large bean bag combo.

For me, the results have been satisfactory with that setup. If I want to switch over to one of my "free recoil" bipod/rear bag setups, I will either have to switch stocks to something that has a flat toe, or install some type of bag rider on the A5 stocks. I've thought about going that route from time to time, but until/unless I have good evidence my scores are suffering from my old school setup, I haven't really had sufficient motivation to do it yet.

Don't think I'd change anything if I were you. I'm going to try my old Sinclair bipod and squeeze the rear bag my next monthly match and see if I can do any better.