Experienced reloaders help required please with neck turning.

[robbobsam]

I am about to start neck turning my cases in the hope of further reducing my ES and SD.

I have just watched the 3 videos on Youtube of the Ammosmith and I have the basic idea of how to do it.

I am an ex-toolmaker by trade so the application of the tooling to achieve the objective is not a problem to me, I am just not sure what the best tool is to do the best job.

I have seen the RCBS attachment in the link below. It attaches to the RCBS trim tool, it looks quite interesting as it turns the inside and outside of the case at the same time making the neck concentric and parallel in one process.

http://www.midwayuk.com/apps/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?SaleItemID=541007

Surely this is better than just doing the outside, if it does what it is supposed to do.

Has anyone on here any experience with it ???

Also is neck turning essential in the hunt for single figure ES and SD figures ???

 

[Bulseyetom]

I have no experience with that tool but I can tell you from bitter experience that neck turning done improperly causes lots of accuracy problems and I would think a conventional hand tool would be much more accurate. I started neck turning when I started shooting benchrest where any mistake shows in the group size. If your chamber is not a tight neck, then you probably don't want to completely clean up the neck by taking so much off as it will then be a super loose fit in the chamber. I always thought that the Wilson neck die was a pretty smart tool as it only sizes part of the neck and leaves the rest expanded to help center the case in the chamber. Anyway, you need an expander arbor and a cutting arbor that are matched so that you have no play in the turner and I would think that a simple hand tool for cleaning up 50% of the neck or so would be all that you need or want. I love my Sinclair neck turner but there are others as well. Tom

 

[GermanS1]

Sam, I highly recommend the hand-held tools. I like the K&M but the Pumpkin, Sinclair and others do a good job also.

I have a short article here on the process http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/12/reloading-neck-turning.html

Also, if you get the K&M, the Pendergraft holder is a real plus, see the short item here: http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/07/good-stuff-pendergraft-holder-for-k.html

 

[artbosco]

Four questions. What's your caliber, neck chamber size, brass that you intend to use, and what dimension do you expect to turn it to with a seated bullet?

 

[ReedG]

Hopefully, you'll get lots of ideas from your question. My experience with a range of neck turning equipment is buy K&M and do it right. There are other similar products from Sinclair, Hornady, etc., but I have only used the K&M and love it. The expander will make the neck "straight" and concentric with the case, plus it pushes any imperfections in the neck wall to the outside to be trimmed off when turning the neck.

Almost any of the neck-sizing dies will size whatever part of the neck you want by proper adjustment. Lots of people subscribe to sizing only the portion of the neck that holds the bullet.

Neck turning seems to have originated in the early days of benchrest shooting, when good quality brass was hard to come by. The concept of turning necks was to get down to the point where the neck was true and not lop-sided. Sometimes this left very thin necks, as thin as .0075 to .0080, and consequently, tight-necked chambers to match them. These thin necks had little strength left for good neck tension and probably caused the phenomenon of seating bullets into the lands to get proper ignition.

I recently read a story of some early target shooters, using .38-55 and .32-40, shooting an entire season of matches with one piece of brass. Imagine that!

Today, we have access to the best brass ever manufactured and lots of Lapua, Norma and Nosler brass can be used as-is. Even some of the Winchester brass I use only needs a minor turning to take off the "high spots".

I'll leave it to the experts to advise you on your search for minimal ES and SD, as I personally think that the superb equipment and components available to us today have made it possible for us to focus on the real weak link in formula and that is us.

Good luck in your search Rob ...

 

[15Tango]

You have to use a hand tool to get the 'float' down or your necks will be all jacked up! You can't center things out in a rigid manner like in normal machining - the mandrel running inside the neck is what gives everything its center and the neck runs on that, if you try to make it center off something else you're just causing binding and trying to cut off center from the neck. Get hand held equipment, try running some shot out or garbage brass for practice first and get your cutter speed and feed rates down - it's literally all on you. I've found running sizing lube on the mandrel and inside of the necks makes it all go smoother and reduce any chatter. Don't waste your money on that stuff in that link.

Wayne

 

[robbobsam]

Four questions. What's your caliber, neck chamber size, brass that you intend to use, and what dimension do you expect to turn it to with a seated bullet?

.308 caliber, Lapua Brass, .335" neck chamber size, and turn the lapua brass down to .014" walls thickness per side.

 

[bozo699]

robbobsam,
I have a sinclair NT-4000 I does a good job for me. I have a rcbs and don't like it near as well.
Wayne.

 

[15Tango]

If your chamber size is .335" shouldn't you be giving the customary .002" clearance with a loaded .333" working out to .0125" wall thickness? .014" thickness is .336" loaded, firing that in a .335" neck could be bad.

Wayne

 

[fdshuster]

Some comments on outside neck turners, from exoerience: Started with the Sinclair NT-1000 and it was "O.K.", but very difficult to get repeatable settings. Using a feeler gauge works for .012", .011", etc., but how do you adjust for .0125", and other in-between sizes? Some ruined very expensive Lapua brass with the trial and error. Against the advice of others I tried the Forster turner that attaches to my case length trimmer--- a piece of junk. I still have it and if anyone wants it, it's free, you pay shipping. Then bought the K&M & was impressed by the adjustable cuts to the fourth decimal place, but the tool body was just too small for me to hold onto, especially with arthritis in the hands & fingers. Also could never get the screwdriver type case holder to hold during cutting. Half way thru the cut it always came loose. Continued to use the Sinclair v-block clamp-on handle, like the type used with a tap & die set, and it works fine. Then bought the Sinclair NT-4000 and have never looked back. In my opinion the best. May be others equal or even better, but I cannot comment on them. The Sinclair solves all the problems I had with the others.

 

[GermanS1]

Sam, Wayne's math is spot on, you need to be at 0.0125" or better yet 0.0120" with a 0.335" chamber neck diameter. My chambers are 0.336" and I turn to 0.0125" for a loaded cartridge neck diameter of 0.333".

What Frank said about the K&M tool being small and sort of a pain to hold is correct also, that's why I suggested the Pendergraft holder, it makes a real difference.

 

[TerryPohl]

Sam I have exactly what you have shown. Tried several times to use it with NO luck. BUT I got a Lee shell holder, chucked it up in my variable speed drill. Pulled the stem from my RCBS trim mate installed the neck turner only and hold every thing in my hand and turn my brass and get very good results with it. If you have the RCBS already this will work great, but if you don’t, I feel there are ones out there that are more user friendly. Hope this helps and good shooting.
Terry Pohl

 

[bozo699]

Terry,
I also use the Lee shell holder w/cordless screwdriver method with my nt-4000 and it works awesome, all the hand control you want or need. For someone Like Frank or my dad w/arthritis this method might just be the ticket.
Wayne.

 

[artbosco]

Four questions. What's your caliber, neck chamber size, brass that you intend to use, and what dimension do you expect to turn it to with a seated bullet?

.308 caliber, Lapua Brass, .335" neck chamber size, and turn the lapua brass down to .014" walls thickness per side.

As mentioned, turning to .333" with a seated bullet (measured at the pressure ring if you're using custom made bullets) will give you .001" on each side, which is fine. I wouldn't drop below that as a rule of thumb, although I know quite a few that do.

Don't forget to measure them periodically because the brass will flow forward and start to reduce that measurement especially at the neck shoulder junction. I personally re-turn from time to time to retain my diameter.

The K&M: Turner, .308 Neck Expander, Shell Holder, and Carbide Cutting Pilot keep everything in sync and the Pendergraft holder makes it all easier on the hand.

 

[bozo699]

Where can I buy a pendergraph holder I would like to try one.
Wayne.

 

[GermanS1]

Wayne, his contact info is in the little article.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/07/good-stuff-pendergraft-holder-for-k.html

 

[AlNyhus]

You definitely want a hand held turner setup.

Years back, I bought a Sinclair NT-2000 (the NT-1000 with the adapter for a dial indicator) and use it to this day. It's a bit of a pain to set up, but really does a nice job. Early on, the dial indicator setup was discarded. A feeler guage is used to set the 'rough' dimension, then the final adjustment is made. For fine adjustment on the depth of cut stop screw, an Allen wrench with a 10 inch 'long' segmet makes the fine adjustments much easier.

I still use this turner, as I've made so many custom mandrels for it I'd hate to start over again with another brand. ;D

Either the K&M with Joel Pendregraft's holder or the new Sinclair NT-4000 would be great.

Hope this helps. -Al

edited for spelling

 

[jonbearman]

German I just want to personally thank you for all the great help you offer other shooters.It is great to see people share. I am going to buy the k&m with the hoder you suggested. Thanks for the good advice today.

 

[bozo699]

Wayne, his contact info is in the little article.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/07/good-stuff-pendergraft-holder-for-k.html

Thanks German, Sometimes I wonder about myself ??? you already had this link on your original post.
I yell @ my kids when they don't pay attention to detail. Sorry.
Wayne.

 

[GermanS1]

Wayne, i did about the same thing at work today, totally missed the info I needed in an email then asked the sender why they hadn't sent it - I felt pretty dumb when I looked at that email again! :

Have fun with the tool! I just finished neck turning about 25 cases (till my screwdriver's charge died) and my hands feel good.

Jon - I think you'll like it too, let us know how it goes! Bruno's has good prices on this stuff, they might even carry the holders, Lester mentioned it the other day. They're right by my office, so I hang out there a little bit at lunchtime...