expander button

[antelopedundee]

Dropping a bullet on a concrete floor ruins it. The question is if you have the skill and equipment to find it. Most rifles you can beat the bullet with a hammer and it doesnt make a difference so most experiments will be inconclusive anyway

Other than maybe a bit of abrasion it's hard to imagine what kind of damage seating a bullet into a tight neck could do to the bullet or case.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Other than maybe a bit of abrasion it's hard to imagine what kind of damage seating a bullet into a tight neck could do to the bullet or case.

Since the bullet core is not bonded to the jacket any kind of disturbance breaks the seal so to speak

 

[antelopedundee]

Since the bullet core is not bonded to the jacket any kind of disturbance breaks the seal so to speak

It's not like you need to put a piece of pipe on the press handle to get enough leverage to seat them.

 

[dannyjbiggs]

Here is a pic of a .25-06 case sized with no expander with a 6.5 mm flat base bullet seated. If you can find damage on that bullet I must be legally blind.

Forgive me, but I'm in awe that you do not have damage to the bullet? Because you must have a tremendous seating pressure to overcome, it clearly shows...and to be using a flat based bullet, too? Look closely at the case neck...see how the forward portion of the neck expands outward in the area where the bullet was seated. And, look closely at the rear of the bullet itself, notice how it is "polished" from the pressure of seating the bullet. This may work for you, but I would not dare seat my match ammo this way.

I do not use an expander ball for most of the reasons stated herein, But, I do use an expander mandrel on the case neck right when it is just out of the FLR die. This gives me smooth and light seating pressure and cartridges pleasant to look at.

Dan

 

[INTJ]

For a hunting rifle, even one we consider highly accurate, a lot of this doesn’t make any difference. For a competition gun, especially a LR BR rig, a lot more matters but we don’t often see that unless conditions are perfect.

If I drop a BR bullet on the floor or counter it goes in the cull bin for fouler duty at best. Does it look damaged? No. Am I sure it is damaged? No. But I am not willing to take a chance. If it opens a group by 1/4 MOA it will make me uncompetitive. With a hunting rifle, who cares? 1/4 MOA won’t make much difference even for 1000 yd hunting rifle.

 

[antelopedundee]

It looks that way because the neck diameter was way smaller than the bullet diameter [.248? vs .264] and of course the bullet was not seated all that deep. Had I seated it with the base below the neck shoulder junction you would have no idea that the case neck was that tight to begin with. Surprisingly it popped out with just a mild tap with the RCBS kinetic bullet puller. The other example was less obvious in this regard since the case neck was turned thereby somewhat negating/offsetting the effect seen with the thicker neck case. For me it seems easier than futching around with a bushing die.

My routine will be tumble clean, prime and load em up. decap, size sans expander, expand with a mandrel

 

[antelopedundee]

For a hunting rifle, even one we consider highly accurate, a lot of this doesn’t make any difference. For a competition gun, especially a LR BR rig, a lot more matters but we don’t often see that unless conditions are perfect.

If I drop a BR bullet on the floor or counter it goes in the cull bin for fouler duty at best. Does it look damaged? No. Am I sure it is damaged? No. But I am not willing to take a chance. If it opens a group by 1/4 MOA it will make me uncompetitive. With a hunting rifle, who cares? 1/4 MOA won’t make much difference even for 1000 yd hunting rifle.

Agree. I'd venture that there is more pressure on a bullet running it into a point die than seating it into a case with a somewhat tight neck.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Agree. I'd venture that there is more pressure on a bullet running it into a point die than seating it into a case with a somewhat tight neck.

Pointing dies damage bullets every day. Bullet makers cringe at the thought

 

[cw308]

Antelope
I'm sure nothing's going to change being it works for you . I have read articles on neck turning and using bushing dies to adjust neck tension using that application you can eliminate the expander , inside and outside case neck diameters are trued . By eliminating the expander it doesn't even save any time . What made you use the bullet as a expander when seating ?

 

[antelopedundee]

Antelope
I'm sure nothing's going to change being it works for you . I have read articles on neck turning and using bushing dies to adjust neck tension using that application you can eliminate the expander , inside and outside case neck diameters are trued . By eliminating the expander it doesn't even save any time . What made you use the bullet as a expander when seating ?

First off, I'm not going to do it that way [at least not to that extreme] for my 6.5-06 stuff since I bought a Redding competition seat die and because of the delicate nature of the die they advise against it AND seating bullets over compressed loads. For my .25-06 loads I'll just size sans expander and seat with my Bonanza bench rest die. It just seems like an unnecessary step to partially expand back up especially with the crappy expander button. Also I am/was of the belief that more neck tension/bullet pull is better than less which may or may not be true.

I'm not a high volume shooter so an extra step is no big deal to me.

 

[cw308]

Antelope
It kind of stumped me hearing that from a precision shooter , I also played around with neck tension , Redding S Type bushing dies , found my old RCBS Standard full size die worked better all around . The majority of the guys I shoot with , the sweet spot on neck tension is .003 . Thanks for clearing things up for me . Be Well .

Chris

 

[338 dude]

Hmmm. Expanders are bad? When you use a bushing you transfer all the irregularities to the inside of the case so they are against the bullet. An expander transfers all those irregularities to the outside of the case leaving a smoother surface for bullet seating. I forget who makes them now but you can get expanders in .001 and .0005” increments. You can also polish one the right size.

When I started using an expander with my 6 BRA bushing die, my seating pressure became much more consistent and very smooth as measured by a 21st Century Hydro seater. Does it make a difference in groups at 600 and 1000 yds? I honestly don’t know. I have been shooting smaller groups but that could be better tuning, though consistent seating pressure is an important part of long range tuning.

I turn necks and use an expanding mandrel to push imperfections out clean up 75 to 80% of imperfections and that is my final step also when I reload as it guarantees me the exact neck dimension that I’m looking for

 

[338 dude]

This. Just leave the button out. There's less friction with the expander ball if you lube the case necks with something like Imperial wax. Unless you are using a fragile seat die like the Redding competition die, why not just let the bullet [esp a boattail] be your expander? For the most part the extra neck tension doesn't matter all that much IMO.

I remove the expander ball from all my dies my final tension is set with an expanding mandrel and I believe neck tension has a great influence on accuracy of ammo Along with many other steps combined And I have used RCBS Forster and Redding and highly prefer Redding dies over all others

 

[338 dude]

Other than maybe a bit of abrasion it's hard to imagine what kind of damage seating a bullet into a tight neck could do to the bullet or case.

If the neck was extremely tight and your seater stem was not an exact fit for your bullet at best I could see leaving a ring where the Stem contacts the bullet

 

[cw308]

338
I don't neck turn and I use the expander . I do find using 3 different brands of brass , FC , ADI and HSM , all are on the thick side . Some brands seat smoother then others , even though I size all the cases exactly the same , could be the difference in brass and spring back . By going to the extreme using a undersized nylon cleaning brush wrapped in 0000 steel wool chucked into a drill a few up and downs all seat very smooth . Could the brass brands be alittle harder causing this I don't know but a few passes with the wool they seat all the same . And shoot just as good . I only F/L size.

 

[Clark]

Most accuracy rituals have too small an effect for me to measure. But going to the range when there is now wind and never use an expander ball are well within the realm of my crude detection.

 

[antelopedundee]

If the neck was extremely tight and your seater stem was not an exact fit for your bullet at best I could see leaving a ring where the Stem contacts the bullet

Which shouldn't make a whit of difference in the same way that a cannelure doesn't matter. Or does it?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Which shouldn't make a whit of difference in the same way that a cannelure doesn't matter. Or does it?

Are you asking if a cannelure matters? It doesnt if youre going full auto or shooting at an animal sized target

 

[antelopedundee]

Are you asking if a cannelure matters? It doesnt if youre going full auto or shooting at an animal sized target

There should never be a reason to have one on a match bullet. But if there was one on a match bullet what would be the negative effect?

 

[Uncle Ed]

The subject of using a expander or expanding the necks at all depends on the type chamber and your type die. If you are a competitive shooter with a custom chambered rifle, neck turn your brass and use a bushing die you can get away not using a expander.

With a off the shelf factory rifle with its larger diameter SAAMI chamber and average factory cases with neck thickness variations you need to expand the necks.

If you neck turn the case 100% in a factory chamber it will expand more and need to be reduced in diameter more that works the brass more. If you use a bushing die on a case neck that needs to be reduced in diameter .004 or more it can induce neck runout.

Bottom line, using a expander depends on your chamber neck diameter. And the Redding bushing FAQ tells you if your neck thickness varies .002 or more then use the expander that comes with their bushing die. And they also tell you to reduce the sized neck diameter .004 so the expander pushes the neck defects to the outside of the case neck.

And the main reason so many reloaders use a Lee collet die and a body die is they get less neck runout than using a bushing die in factory chambers.