expander button

[338 dude]

338
I don't neck turn and I use the expander . I do find using 3 different brands of brass , FC , ADI and HSM , all are on the thick side . Some brands seat smoother then others , even though I size all the cases exactly the same , could be the difference in brass and spring back . By going to the extreme using a undersized nylon cleaning brush wrapped in 0000 steel wool chucked into a drill a few up and downs all seat very smooth . Could the brass brands be alittle harder causing this I don't know but a few passes with the wool they seat all the same . And shoot just as good . I only F/L size.

Something else I forgot to ask that definitely helps brass life and even out neck tension is annealing do you anneal I do my brass after every firing

 

[cw308]

Hi Bill
Never got into annealing , you obviously know what your doing by neck turning and using heat . I try my best with the basics , my neck thickness isn't perfect that's why I use the expander with a standard full length sizing die , I'm shooting pretty mild loads , my cases last my whole shooting season 5 months . Your neck turning , your case neck thickness is perfect and sizing with bushing dies seems to me the best way without the expander. You can also adjust neck tension , all looks good to me . I just loaded some rounds with Imperial Dry Neck lube with those micro balls , made seating smooth as silk . Hope things are going well .

Chris

 

[338 dude]

338
I don't neck turn and I use the expander . I do find using 3 different brands of brass , FC , ADI and HSM , all are on the thick side . Some brands seat smoother then others , even though I size all the cases exactly the same , could be the difference in brass and spring back . By going to the extreme using a undersized nylon cleaning brush wrapped in 0000 steel wool chucked into a drill a few up and downs all seat very smooth . Could the brass brands be alittle harder causing this I don't know but a few passes with the wool they seat all the same . And shoot just as good . I only F/L size.

I wouldn’t say harder but possibly after you polish them they are smoother at the very least more consistent And different manufacturers will definitely have different thicknesses as well

 

[338 dude]

Hi Bill
Never got into annealing , you obviously know what your doing by neck turning and using heat . I try my best with the basics , my neck thickness isn't perfect that's why I use the expander with a standard full length sizing die , I'm shooting pretty mild loads , my cases last my whole shooting season 5 months . Your neck turning , your case neck thickness is perfect and sizing with bushing dies seems to me the best way without the expander. You can also adjust neck tension , all looks good to me . I just loaded some rounds with Imperial Dry Neck lube with those micro balls , made seating smooth as silk . Hope things are going well .

Chris

Things are going well today my friend I made it to the range for the first time in two months everything went great out to 1000 had a little trouble today at 1250 just wasn’t working out . Also talking about your thread do you mean this stuff Ha ha ha I have tried nearly everything there is to try at one time or another And let’s not forget my favorite room in the house where all the magic happens

 

[338 dude]

Which shouldn't make a whit of difference in the same way that a cannelure doesn't matter. Or does it?

Hmmmm?

 

[antelopedundee]

Hmmmm?

So if a seater stem might leave a ring [which should be all the way around] on a bullet how would that affect accuracy if it was uniform for every loaded round? The key to the best and most consistent accuracy is UNIFORMITY.

 

[338 dude]

So if a seater stem might leave a ring [which should be all the way around] on a bullet how would that affect accuracy if it was uniform for every loaded round? The key to the best and most consistent accuracy is UNIFORMITY.

I just don’t see how the ring could do anything good and I never shoot bullets with a canalure but I do agree with you 100% about uniformity

 

[antelopedundee]

I just don’t see how the ring could do anything good and I never shoot bullets with a canalure but I do agree with you 100% about uniformity

If it did leave a ring it doesn't mean that its effect will automatically be detrimental or negative. My limited experience was that there was no obvious effect on the bullet I used and I left it at that showing that it could be done. Frankly, the 5 I loaded that way shot no better or worse than any of the others that I shot that day.

 

[338 dude]

If it did leave a ring it doesn't mean that its effect will automatically be detrimental or negative. My limited experience was that there was no obvious effect on the bullet I used and I left it at that showing that it could be done. Frankly, the 5 I loaded that way shot no better or worse than any of the others that I shot that day.

That’s the proper way if you don’t know do a test and find out

 

[cw308]

Glad your back shooting , great bench setup and that range is beautiful , figured you tried the dry lube . Wish we had ranges like that in my area , 200 yards is the max . Hard to keep a good man down . Stay Well

Chris

 

[antelopedundee]

The subject of using a expander or expanding the necks at all depends on the type chamber and your type die. If you are a competitive shooter with a custom chambered rifle, neck turn your brass and use a bushing die you can get away not using a expander.

With a off the shelf factory rifle with its larger diameter SAAMI chamber and average factory cases with neck thickness variations you need to expand the necks.

If you neck turn the case 100% in a factory chamber it will expand more and need to be reduced in diameter more that works the brass more. If you use a bushing die on a case neck that needs to be reduced in diameter .004 or more it can induce neck runout.

Bottom line, using a expander depends on your chamber neck diameter. And the Redding bushing FAQ tells you if your neck thickness varies .002 or more then use the expander that comes with their bushing die. And they also tell you to reduce the sized neck diameter .004 so the expander pushes the neck defects to the outside of the case neck.

And the main reason so many reloaders use a Lee collet die and a body die is they get less neck runout than using a bushing die in factory chambers.

How exactly does a button type expander cause or introduce neck runout? If you pull the expander button STRAIGHT up it shouldn't matter should it? Would case rim thickness variation be a factor? Would you want to have a fairly tight fit of your case into the shellholder to alleviate any sloppiness which might cause problems with the case not exiting the die properly?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

How exactly does a button type expander cause or introduce neck runout? If you pull the expander button STRAIGHT up it shouldn't matter should it? Would case rim thickness variation be a factor? Would you want to have a fairly tight fit of your case into the shellholder to alleviate any sloppiness which might cause problems with the case not exiting the die properly?

What if your neck is thicker on one side? Wouldnt that expander introduce runout then?

 

[antelopedundee]

Most accuracy rituals have too small an effect for me to measure. But going to the range when there is now wind and never use an expander ball are well within the realm of my crude detection.

This meant to be sarcastic? When sighting in a new scope or testing a new load, I'd just as soon eliminate wind effects if I can.

FWIW I don't ritualize at the range or the reloading bench.

 

[antelopedundee]

What if your neck is thicker on one side? Wouldnt that expander introduce runout then?

Possibly, but I assume that someone has tested that out?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Possibly, but I assume that someone has tested that out?

Yes

 

[Uncle Ed]

What if your neck is thicker on one side? Wouldnt that expander introduce runout then?

I have Remington .223 brass with .009 neck thickness variations, and the expander or a bushing die can have runout problems with neck thickness variations.

Even if the case neck remained concentric with the case body after sizing the bullet would be out of alignment with the bore.

By simply installing a high mounted Forster expander in my Redding .243 die it greatly reduced neck runout. And a Redding bushing die in the same rifle with neck turned brass produces more neck runout. And this is because of the amount the neck expands when fired and then need to be reduced in diameter when sizing.

You have postings with people not using a expander and not expanding the necks at all and their case neck looks like a wasp waisted pistol reload.

The expander is not the end of the world as many people think. All you need to do is polish the expander and lube the inside the case neck. And if needed use a Forster die with a honed neck to not overly reduce the neck diameter.

And using a expander die expands the neck on the upstroke of the ram and pushing down on the base of the case. This greatly reduces the chances of the case tilting when expanded and inducing runout.

Below a new RCBS expander and if not polished and the inside of the neck lubed it can pull the neck off center.

There are many things that can cause neck runout, your chamber, your brass and your dies. And its up to the person reloading on how to reduce any excessive runout for their type rifle and dies.

And now for a shocker, the average reloader without any gauges with a factory rifle can load very good ammunition with a simple and cheap Lee full length die. The locking collet when tightened centers the expander in the die. And with other type dies you can lock the expander down off center and induce runout. The expander is mounted higher on the expander spindle. This decreases any case tilt on the down stroke of the ram and simular to the Forster dies.

Bottom line, I'm not knocking competitive shooters with custom made rifles. But with a factory rifle with a SAAMI chamber, neck turning and using a bushing die can increase neck runout. And again the Redding bushing FAQ tells you to use their expander if the neck thickness varies .002 or more. And if you turn the necks you just have to reduce the fired neck diameter that much more.

Now look at the bushing die below and the clearance between the bushing and the die body. And this clearance will allow the bushing to tilt the more you have to reduce the neck diameter and increasing runout.

 

[jepp2]

By simply installing a high mounted Forster expander in my Redding .243 die it greatly reduced neck runout.

Or just run your Redding expander high enough so it enters the neck as soon as the case neck starts to leave the die neck. Mine in the picture is set this way. On longer cases I need to run the threads further down the expander shaft and remove the excess length.

if not polished and the inside of the neck lubed it can pull the neck off center.

I've spent a lot of time working on minimizing case neck runout. I find that even using a good lube inside the case neck and a carbide expander, if your expander is increasing the case neck 0.002" or more, it WILL pull the case neck off center.

 

[cw308]

Dusty Stevens
I use the expander because of the uneven case thickness . When I tested with the Hornady concentricity gauge from case body with the gage resting on the bullet I had very little runout .001 but if I positioned the gage on the neckarea it would be easily .005 on up . Maybe the expander aligns the bullet to the case body , with room in the chamber neck area it may not be effected that much , tight chambers may be a different story . Just a thought .

 

[Uncle Ed]

Or just run your Redding expander high enough so it enters the neck as soon as the case neck starts to leave the die neck. Mine in the picture is set this way. On longer cases I need to run the threads further down the expander shaft and remove the excess length.

"WHY" drag the longer Redding expander with more surface area and drag through your case necks. Its no wonder why so many reloaders do not like expanders after spending more for a Redding die.

I've spent a lot of time working on minimizing case neck runout. I find that even using a good lube inside the case neck and a carbide expander, if your expander is increasing the case neck 0.002" or more, it WILL pull the case neck off center.

Ever wonder why so many reloaders use the Lee collet die and a body die vs a bushing die.

And a Forster full length benchrest die with its high mounted floating expander will not pull your necks off center. The neck of the case is held and centered in the neck of the die when the expander enters the case neck. And if you remove the expander from any type full length die and use a expander die you can have similar results as the Forster die. And the more you reduce your neck thickness by neck turning the bigger the chance the thinner necks will be pulled off center. And reducing the neck diameter over .004 can induce neck runout with a floating bushing die.

Bottom line, there is no perfect system for sizing brass with the verity in size of custom and factory chambers.

 

[antelopedundee]

"WHY" drag the longer Redding expander with more surface area and drag through your case necks. Its no wonder why so many reloaders do not like expanders after spending more for a Redding die.




Ever wonder why so many reloaders use the Lee collet die and a body die vs a bushing die.

And a Forster full length benchrest die with its high mounted floating expander will not pull your necks off center. The neck of the case is held and centered in the neck of the die when the expander enters the case neck. And if you remove the expander from any type full length die and use a expander die you can have similar results as the Forster die. And the more you reduce your neck thickness by neck turning the bigger the chance the thinner necks will be pulled off center. And reducing the neck diameter over .004 can induce neck runout with a floating bushing die.

Bottom line, there is no perfect system for sizing brass with the verity in size of custom and factory chambers.

IMO it would be wise to take the stem in that Lee die that you posted a pic of and turn it around such that the entire bottom inch or so becomes the expander; so for a .264 cal it would be .261 or .262 or whatever size stem for the last inch of stem. A .270 win neck is about 3/8 inch long. Why would you want to expand that distance with something that contacts the neck with only a millimeter [if that] contact length? I would want the entire neck filled with expander button if it was me.