excessive cock on close, **updated/resolved**

[Kevin1990]

Have you tried the Shilen?

About to here soon. Been remodeling my bathroom all day until this. My wife is making me put the toilet back over the flange and hooking it up. I never get to do what I want. Haha

 

[Kevin1990]

Update. I put the shilen BR trigger
in again and adjusted everything, and it’s about the same as the trigger tech diamond. Still getting a snap forward on the hitch and it’s still petty hard to close.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Kelbly ignition is basicly a Remigton ignition. This is how they designed it to be. Kelbly actions need about .040 to .050 cock on close to achieve the requied pin fall for accuracy. The only way around it is to recut the cocking cam helix and re time the action.

 

[AlNyhus]

Kevin, give Kelbly's a call Monday and they'll get it squared away. Your video was very helpful too. -Al

 

[Alex Wheeler]

If you have .240-.250 of pin fall, do not change the trigger hanger. Your video looks normal. Thats how they are.

 

[boltfluter]

Kelbly ignition is basicly a Remigton ignition. This is how they designed it to be. Kelbly actions need about .040 to .050 cock on close to achieve the requied pin fall for accuracy. The only way around it is to recut the cocking cam helix and re time the action.

While I am a Kelblys fan, if this is normal it's time for an ignition update. I definitely would not like the feel of that setup. Maybe, in this world of multiple triggers, it is more of a trigger compatibility problem than an action problem. Just thinking out loud.
Paul

 

[drop_point]

My Kelbly action does not do this. I have a Jewel trigger. Call Kelbly Monday and they will square you away. They pride themselves on customer service.

 

[Tim Singleton]

That is

If you have .240-.250 of pin fall, do not change the trigger hanger. Your video looks normal. Thats how they are.

this is what I was thinking too
it looked pretty normal for a rem style action

 

[Tim Singleton]

If you have .240-.250 of pin fall, do not change the trigger hanger. Your video looks normal. Thats how they are.

Not hijacking to badly. I hope

Alex
what is a good choice for a repeater action these days that gets close to the .250 without as much cock on close?

 

[whatsupdoc]

My Kelbly action does not do this. I have a Jewel trigger. Call Kelbly Monday and they will square you away. They pride themselves on customer service.

Do you have the Kelbly atlas tactical action?

 

[drop_point]

Do you have the Kelbly atlas tactical action?

Its the Kelbly Atlas single-shot. As far as I understand, they are the same action minus the bolt knob and the tactical is a repeater.

 

[LRPV]

Had a similar issue, different action. Coming from the Savage end of things, when I went back to the Rem700 clone world everyone had been gushing about how wonderful the trigger selection was and how easy it was to just pull two pins and swap triggers. Easy peasy.

Yeah, no.

I went through a major process finding a trigger that would work on my action (Bighorn Origin). Straight out of the box, half the triggers I tried required more force to open the bolt than the worst military surplus action. One, a tuned 40X trigger was acceptable... but it was more than 50% cock on close, which I didn't particularly like. I had a gunsmith work on the cocking piece, which got it working 'okay'... but then I had to send the bolt back to the manufacturer for unrelated warranty repair... and it came back with a brand new cocking piece, and all the work undone. Finally found that a TriggerTech Diamond worked pretty well with a minimum of shenanigans. What a friggin' PITA. Definitely not all rainbows and ponies like I'd expected.

Please don't lump ALL 700 clone actions into the same pile with the base bighorn/zermatt. They aren't all created equal.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Unless it's terrible, to the point of either upsetting the gun in the bags or slowing you down, a bit of cock on close amounts to nothing but feel. The important thing is to have enough fp fall. Yes, it feels nice to have perfect handoff but will it shoot any better or worse? No.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

My Kelbly action does not do this. I have a Jewel trigger. Call Kelbly Monday and they will square you away. They pride themselves on customer service.

How much firing pin fall do you have? Had a brand new panda in here a couple weeks ago. It had no cock on close. It also had .200" or firing pin fall and requied a +.050 trigger hanger to fix it.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Im not knocking these actions at all, just stating the fact they are designed intentionally to have cock on close. The closing cams have varied a little over the years, so how much cock on close they have will vary but they will all have it to achieve the minimum reccomended pin fall. The deeper the closing cams get the more that cocking piece falls before the trigger catches it, then you pick up that lost pin fall with even more cock on close. Chamfer on the leading edge of the lug has the same effect.

 

[AlNyhus]

I checked my Atlas this morning....with the supplied hanger, C.O.C. is .025. My Panda and Kodiak are from .025-.030. Pin fall runs .240-.255 and pin protrussion in the .050's. Triggers are Jewells.

 

[drop_point]

How much firing pin fall do you have? Had a brand new panda in here a couple weeks ago. It had no cock on close. It also had .200" or firing pin fall and requied a +.050 trigger hanger to fix it.

I haven't measured it and its currently a couple hundred miles away. I will check it when I'm home again.

 

[Kevin1990]

If you have .240-.250 of pin fall, do not change the trigger hanger. Your video looks normal. Thats how they are.

I don’t have any evidence to the contrary, and you have forgotten more than I’ll ever know. as this is my first one, but I feel like I’m going to gall the hell out of the lugs eventually. in that video, I’d say I have to put about 6-8 pounds of downward pressure to get it to engage and go downward. That’s normal? Been wanting to switch over to a bix trigger. Wonder if that’s help maybe? Just crazy to me, the difference between my defiance tenacity and this one. It’s night and day.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I don’t have any evidence to the contrary, and you have forgotten more than I’ll ever know. as this is my first one, but I feel like I’m going to gall the hell out of the lugs eventually. in that video, I’d say I have to put about 6-8 pounds of downward pressure to get it to engage and go downward. That’s normal? Been wanting to switch over to a bix trigger. Wonder if that’s help maybe? Just crazy to me, the difference between my defiance tenacity and this one. It’s night and day.

Without feeling it I cant say if its normal, but the cock on close is. The defiance does not need cock on close to achieve the pin fall needed, so it will feel much different

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I don’t have any evidence to the contrary, and you have forgotten more than I’ll ever know. as this is my first one, but I feel like I’m going to gall the hell out of the lugs eventually. in that video, I’d say I have to put about 6-8 pounds of downward pressure to get it to engage and go downward. That’s normal? Been wanting to switch over to a bix trigger. Wonder if that’s help maybe? Just crazy to me, the difference between my defiance tenacity and this one. It’s night and day.

He's right but some are worse than others. Just call them and talk with them, and go from there. I'd be shocked if it was bad enough to cause any physical problem, like galling but just give them a call. If nothing else, it'll be worth some piece of mind. Again, some cock on close really boils down to feel rather than anything performance wise. Had one in the shop a while back that I imagine is similar to yours. I did use a different hanger and massaged things a bit to make it a little better without going all in on it. I don't remember the exact numbers but I think it was still at .245 pin fall when I called it good enough.

I really wouldn't call it a quality issue but more of an intentional design aspect. Some of it is the rather abrupt transition of the closing cams. You can carefully break the edges ther, both inside the action and on the leading edge of the bolt lugs to smooth it out just a tad bit without changing anything about pin fall or anything. A little goes a good way here but it won't change the amount of cock on close, just smooth out the abrupt transition to it some.