ERIK & ERIC

[Bill Norris]

Im a proponent of tuners. If you use them right. When I first started shooting for accuracy tuners were popular at my local range. I knew what a tuner was before I knew 99% of what goes into load development. The biggest problem with tuners is when the end user uses them as a short cut. Its very common and held back a lot of guys. In my opinion you should not touch it until the rifle is shooting to its potential through normal load development. Its why when a new shooter asks, I recommend doing one or two barrels without one first, then trying one. Im no expert on using one to tune during the match, but I can highly recommend not skipping any of the tuning process prior to using the tuner.

Agree Alex. If the load (powder, charge, primer) ain't happy then the tuner will not correct that.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

It is actually your tuner, the Ezell tuner, that I do use and I appreciate the time we spent on the phone. As a mid-range and long-range F-Class shooter it is sometimes easy to observe that there is more vertical in the downrange group than expected, and especially so, if you feel that the rifle has gone out of tune. It is more difficult to comprehend what has occurred in windy, heavy mirage, late afternoon sessions coupled with some fatigue.

Even using your method, it is not at all easy for me to see the pattern after 5 or so down range shots, recognize the pattern and have a good idea of how to turn the tuner. I honestly can't seem to remember more than the last two shots.

I use tuner because I believe it is better to have one than not, but I also know that I can tune a rifle w/o one just as well for a specific condition. If that condition changes dramatically like Spring to Summer here in Georgia, then I have to develop another load rather than finding a better tuner setting.

There is also the idea that a competitor might be able to improve performance during a match with a tuner change. To be honest, I have not even tried that because I am not confident that I see a pattern that I recognize and know what to do about that in the conditions mentioned above.

One last bonus thought. IMO, it would diminish this sport if all you had to do was plug in your case brand, cartridge, powder, projectile, primer and barrel details into your phone and out popped the perfect load. Finding a tolerant load or taking a risk on a hot-rod, narrow windowed load is all part of the sport.

I have a great deal of appreciation for all of you guys that have created tools, methods, apps and accessories that make our sport better. It's got to feel pretty good knowing you've left your mark in a very positive way on a sport you enjoy.

Hank

Lets go over it again so it's fresh on your mind, at least. I see a couple of things in your post that I think we can address and be of help on. Otherwise, I think you're on the right track. I agree about when the clock is running, the wind is blowing and being sure about tune. I might be able to help. I'll certainly give it my best shot!

 

[Dave M.]

Well the good bad and the ugly
the test was bad it sucked the es/sd was suckin to say the least
shot 50 rounds es128.03 sd24.84
started the tuner out on 0 three shot groups up to 10 on the tunner 30 sh0ts total
as you can see the groups opened and closed throughout the test
but the load was fu as you can see the tuner wont make a sucky load better but the groups got smaller and bigger even with a bad load I need to get the es down below 30 and the sd in the single digitsView attachment 1446900 and do this again cheers hope this was helpful for someone
all in all it was still a fun 2 and a half hours at the range with all of the other old men Cheers

For his sake, I sure hope these weren’t 100 yard groups. If so, the groups are horrible. In fact, if these groups were shot at any distance under 400 yards, I’m not impressed one bit with his ability to shoot, therefore making the results of his tuner testing virtually useless.
Dave

 

[williepete]

For his sake, I sure hope these weren’t 100 yard groups. If so, the groups are horrible. In fact, if these groups were shot at any distance under 400 yards, I’m not impressed one bit with his ability to shoot, therefore making the results of his tuner testing virtually useless.
Dave

Well no shit Dave I already stated the groups sucked with that kind of es/sd what do you expect and yes it was at 100 yards and far as my ability to shoot all my tuner testing is done with a machine rest
but thanks for your helpful support and encouragement for a fellow shooter

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Well no shit Dave I already stated the groups sucked with that kind of es/sd what do you expect and yes it was at 100 yards and far as my ability to shoot all my tuner testing is done with a machine rest
but thanks for your helpful support and encouragement for a fellow shooter

Tell us about your machine rest. Is it a rail gun or something totally different?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

It is actually your tuner, the Ezell tuner, that I do use and I appreciate the time we spent on the phone. As a mid-range and long-range F-Class shooter it is sometimes easy to observe that there is more vertical in the downrange group than expected, and especially so, if you feel that the rifle has gone out of tune. It is more difficult to comprehend what has occurred in windy, heavy mirage, late afternoon sessions coupled with some fatigue.

Even using your method, it is not at all easy for me to see the pattern after 5 or so down range shots, recognize the pattern and have a good idea of how to turn the tuner. I honestly can't seem to remember more than the last two shots.

I use tuner because I believe it is better to have one than not, but I also know that I can tune a rifle w/o one just as well for a specific condition. If that condition changes dramatically like Spring to Summer here in Georgia, then I have to develop another load rather than finding a better tuner setting.

There is also the idea that a competitor might be able to improve performance during a match with a tuner change. To be honest, I have not even tried that because I am not confident that I see a pattern that I recognize and know what to do about that in the conditions mentioned above.

One last bonus thought. IMO, it would diminish this sport if all you had to do was plug in your case brand, cartridge, powder, projectile, primer and barrel details into your phone and out popped the perfect load. Finding a tolerant load or taking a risk on a hot-rod, narrow windowed load is all part of the sport.

I have a great deal of appreciation for all of you guys that have created tools, methods, apps and accessories that make our sport better. It's got to feel pretty good knowing you've left your mark in a very positive way on a sport you enjoy.

Hank

I am a bit confused but that's nothing new. Lol! In post 24 you mentioned the tuner is an EC tuner.
"In a AR 16 inch barrel with EC tuner". I'll try to help either way.

 

[williepete]

Tell us about your machine rest. Is it a rail gun or something totally different?

Hyskore Professional Shooting Accessories | #30185 Black Gun® Machine Rest

hyskore.com

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Hyskore Professional Shooting Accessories | #30185 Black Gun® Machine Rest

hyskore.com

Not telling you what to do or anything but by the looks of that rest, it's putting quite a bit of force, two directions, on the handguard, which might as well be touching the barrel on an ar15. I've never used one like that so it might be great but that aspect would be a concern to me when tuning.

 

[williepete]

Not telling you what to do or anything but by the looks of that rest, it's putting quite a bit of force, two directions, on the handguard, which might as well be touching the barrel on an ar15. I've never used one like that so it might be great but that aspect would be a concern to me when tuning.

I don't have a free float barrel here so bacassly it is touching the barrel at this point I can only work with what I have this is my set up.
My goal is to shoot 1 inch moa or better at a 100 yards that's all we have around here with a gas gun
I don't think that is too much to ask for
I have done it before with this gun and load until the donut problem came up.
My process is work up a good load with the lab radar put it into the rest and adjust the tuner useing three shot groups at each setting pick out the best one than fine tune the best setting more and call it a day.
that use to give me repeatibale 1 inch or les groups at 100 on the by pod

 

[williepete]

Not telling you what to do or anything but by the looks of that rest, it's putting quite a bit of force, two directions, on the handguard, which might as well be touching the barrel on an ar15. I've never used one like that so it might be great but that aspect would be a concern to me when tuning.

I don't mind some one suggesting something every thing helps and there is always something to learn
I am new to reloading only been doing it for 3 years and shoot about a 100 rounds a week when weather permits
we are neighbors I am just north in the big O I would love to know what you know
thanks for any suggestions

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I don't mind some one suggesting some every thing helps and there is always something to learn
I am new to this only been doing it for 3 years and shoot about a 100 rounds a week when weather permits
we are neighbors I am just north in the big O I would love to know what you know
thanks for any suggestions

Owensboro? Not too far at all. I think just a little over an hour.

AR's are a little different animal vs a bolt gun in terms of setting them up in a rest. Some have good results with the front rest about as far back as you can get it. Same for some single shot(break open) rifles. The idea being to put as little pressure and leverage on the bbl. In the case of an AR, the handguard is attached at the same place as the bbl so upward handguard pressure puts some upward pressure on the bbl too, even with a free float handguard, albeit a lot better than the old style non floating type. Just something you have to play with a little bit to see what the gun likes...but that's the logic anyway.

Looks like something can use some attention to get the groups smaller and I bet we can get it down quite a bit from where it is right now. Let me know if I can help in any way.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I don't have a free float barrel here so bacassly it is touching the barrel at this point I can only work with what I have this is my set up.
My goal is to shoot 1 inch moa or better at a 100 yards that's all we have around here with a gas gun
I don'tView attachment 1448333 think that is too much to ask for
I have done it before with this gun and load until the donut problem came up.
My process is work up a good load with the lab radar put it into the rest and adjust the tuner useing three shot groups at each setting pick out the best one than fine tune the best setting more and call it a day.
that use to give me repeatibale 1 inch or les groups at 100 on the by pod

That's not my tuner, fwiw...but still happy to help if I can.

edit...I think I have you and henryrifle confused. He said he is using my tuner and I think I was confusing your posts with his. Happy to help both if I can, though.

 

[williepete]

That's not my tuner, fwiw...but still happy to help if I can.

edit...I think I have you and henryrifle confused. He said he is using my tuner and I think I was confusing your posts with his. Happy to help both if I can, though.

That is very kind and generous to offer but I just would not feel right taking up a mans time
when I have another mans product, but I go to the range about 2 days a week and I get asked about the tuner a lot.
I will definitely pass on your info, you deserve the business I see you here all the time and like Erick you are always positive and helpful.

 

[jackieschmidt]

I ran across one showing a 16" .556 barrel,some serious whipping going on there.

That appears to be the barrel flexing at the barrel/receiver junction.

 

[Dave M.]

Well no shit Dave I already stated the groups sucked with that kind of es/sd what do you expect and yes it was at 100 yards and far as my ability to shoot all my tuner testing is done with a machine rest
but thanks for your helpful support and encouragement for a fellow shooter

Maybe skip the tuner at this point and let’s work on finding a better load that can shoot small groups. I’m sorry for being an ass, not my style and I apologize for that. Let’s start at the top and work through the powder weight charge and seating depth. In all fairness, I shot a tuner test with 3 shot groups from 100 yards using Mike Ezell’s tuner and we spent quite a bit of time discussing the target and even though most of the settings showed small groups and three holes touching, we agreed that I had shot the target with too much variation in cross wind and it was difficult for Mike to properly determine the best setting. Don’t expect that you will rotate the tuner and all the sudden 2.5” three shot groups will magically turn into 0.250” groups. It just doesn’t work that way. Again, I’m sorry I was an ass, but I think there is very little to be gained by examining the target you sent, other than to say that rifle is either grossly out of tune, or something is grossly wrong with the stand or shooting technique. To effectively gauge a tuner in my estimation, a rifle should be capable of shooting consistently at or under 0.500” from 100 yards for three shot groups (most would argue that number is even way too large and 0.250” would be more realistic).
Dave

 

[jackieschmidt]

Maybe skip the tuner at this point and let’s work on finding a better load that can shoot small groups. I’m sorry for being an ass, not my style and I apologize for that. Let’s start at the top and work through the powder weight charge and seating depth. In all fairness, I shot a tuner test with 3 shot groups from 100 yards using Mike Ezell’s tuner and we spent quite a bit of time discussing the target and even though most of the settings showed small groups and three holes touching, we agreed that I had shot the target with too much variation in cross wind and it was difficult for Mike to properly determine the best setting. Don’t expect that you will rotate the tuner and all the sudden 2.5” three shot groups will magically turn into 0.250” groups. It just doesn’t work that way. Again, I’m sorry I was an ass, but I think there is very little to be gained by examining the target you sent, other than to say that rifle is either grossly out of tune, or something is grossly wrong with the stand or shooting technique. To effectively gauge a tuner in my estimation, a rifle should be capable of shooting consistently at or under 0.500” from 100 yards for three shot groups (most would argue that number is even way too large and 0.250” would be more realistic).
Dave

Your last sentence says a lot.

 

[Dave M.]

Your last sentence says a lot.

Agree. Mike Ezell and I spent an hour looking at my .284 win tuner settings test groups and determined the conditions were not calm enough to fairly evaluate the tuner. Here is the target of that testing.

 

[jimmymac]

What did you end up doing?

 

[williepete]

Maybe skip the tuner at this point and let’s work on finding a better load that can shoot small groups. I’m sorry for being an ass, not my style and I apologize for that. Let’s start at the top and work through the powder weight charge and seating depth. In all fairness, I shot a tuner test with 3 shot groups from 100 yards using Mike Ezell’s tuner and we spent quite a bit of time discussing the target and even though most of the settings showed small groups and three holes touching, we agreed that I had shot the target with too much variation in cross wind and it was difficult for Mike to properly determine the best setting. Don’t expect that you will rotate the tuner and all the sudden 2.5” three shot groups will magically turn into 0.250” groups. It just doesn’t work that way. Again, I’m sorry I was an ass, but I think there is very little to be gained by examining the target you sent, other than to say that rifle is either grossly out of tune, or something is grossly wrong with the stand or shooting technique. To effectively gauge a tuner in my estimation, a rifle should be capable of shooting consistently at or under 0.500” from 100 yards for three shot groups (most would argue that number is even way too large and 0.250” would be more realistic).
Dave

Well Dave apology not necessary but appreciated
I am going on 71 years old and my skin is not that thin
At my age this is all I have now, getting up everyday at 5:00 am reloading going to the range and shooting then do it all again this is what I do every day besides mowing the lawn fixing things around the house and the honey do list, basically I am rounding third and waving at the crowd and I know it.
If people would to take the time to read all of a persons postings in a thread they might understand better what's going on
The problem is not the tuner I have had two of them first a Harrell's and now the Erick Cortina tuner
I know how they work and how to use them
AS far as the load I know how to work up a load so it will shoot
That's where I was scratching my head about, this load was a known load that shot real well until it did not.
The problem turned out to be in the neck tension with donuts in the neck these are all things that I talked about in post leading up to this.
What is really important here in my opinion which means nothing as you know they are like ass holes every one has one (no reference to you Dave) but what is much more paramount is These forums can be a great source for helping some one out but in every forum that I have been to and that's a lot (you can see where the computer screen above my loading bench is) there is a lot of bashing going on
To me and should be to every one here is What's more important than punching holes in paper is solidarity in the gun community
Because Dudes in the new world order BS and the political environment we have now
The fact is we are the only friends each other have. the anti gunners love seeing and trust me (they are watching in the shadows) is us fighting among each other A house divided will fall.
Just something to think about from a old man.

 

[JFrank]

My excuse is that for the past number of years, all of my 100Y shooting was indoors ... no need for flags there.

The air conditioning might be on, best to set a small pinwheel flag at 10 ft just to sure.