Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems I remember seeing some super slow motion video of how a barrel reacts to the shot. I seem to remember the barrel whipping a pretty good bit.
ERIK & ERIC
- Thread starter Bill Norris
- Start date
Yea, I think there may be more than one out there showing barrel whip. Seeing is NOT believing for those that think they know more than they really do.
I have shot 1 inch groups and smaller with that bullet, the problem is the es/sd all over the place
it started happening when I changed my setting neck tension method, I am going to go back to my old method and see if the groups and the es /sd comes back to where they were before.
According to Cortina who I respect very much if es/sd is high it is either primer powder case capacity or neck tension, he said that when does load development he does not even shoot at papper until he gets the es/sd where he can live with it. the primers I have used for years with great results the cases are sport on the powder is good stuff that only leaves neck tension
fwiw I also tried Hornaday 68 gn. match and smk 69 gn. and federal ar match primers with the same set up and they shot like sehot also
Any way this is Bills thread and I don't want to muddy it up with my problems
When I figure this out I will start a thread and tell what I find cheers.
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock and roll dudes
No worries at all Bro. Carry on. I'm following.
Bronsin
Silver $$ Contributor
I saw a video of Keith Glasscock's F Class. 284 Win in slomo, and it showed me that my barrel didn't have nearly enough clearance to work properly.
Think I found the problem wasn't until I broke out the gauge pines to check neck tension
wango tango donuts, did not have donuts until I started using the lee collet neck die cleaned all 50 rounds resized with the forester fld with the expander button in it after that rechecked the necks with the pin gauges no donuts, will prime load and seat crimp and reshoot the test if the es/sd goes down back to where it was in the beginning I will re do the tuner test and see what the targets have to say thanks for all your input cheers
That's interesting. I've loaded thousands of .223 rounds using a Lee collet die in combination with a Redding body die and never had any donuts. What brass are you using?
I have swapped over to a Forster FLS die now with the expander ball installed. I anneal every firing (didn't with the Lee/Redding combo) and my ES/SD is much better.
I am using Lapua brass anneal every time, when I first started to use the lee I would check the neck tension with pins and for the first three firings no problem so I quit checking the necks but after about five firings my groups went to hell ran it over a crono and the es/sd was crazy, so after resizing again with a Redding body die and using the lee neck die though I would check neck tension with the pins, they would slide in there and come to a stop right at the neck junction got out the bore scope and took a look and there the donut was, resized again with the forester fld with the button in and donut gone, pin slides right into the body of the case. I am not slamming the lee this is just what I experienced.
Just a heads up on the anneal and the forester die.
That was my first die I was shooting imi 556 brass did not anneal then I started annealing the brass gets soft and when raising the press handle up I was pulling my bump out of wack that's when I quit using the forester that was my rookie flubup, when I resized this last batch of 50 I lubed the case necks inside and the button came out smooth as silk checked the bump on all 50 and they were spot on, just a thought since you are annealing now you might want to lube the inside of the case so that button can slide ease and not pull your bump out just my 2 cents fwtw
I see plenty of movement after the bullet is gone but I can't see it before. I wouldn't expect to though, either. Shoot a sine wave test and do the math. The movement is very small but a sine test proves it is there.I ran across one showing a 16" .556 barrel,some serious whipping going on there.
this guy has a series of videos on the subject some of you may find enjoyable.
@Erik Cortina thoughts on working with these guys to answer what happens for a slo mo firing? They seem to own serious slo mo cameras
jimmymac
Jim McGregor
don't forget wind flags
The value of wind flags should never be in question. In the quest for ultimate precision people get super focused on ES, SD, neck tension, annealing, neck sizing, bullet sorting, reloading press brand, primer seating depth, etc. while shooting at a couple or three hundred yards. That stuff is mostly white noise compared to the wind.
I can say without hesitation that my flags are the most important tool I use. It is where the rubber hits the road. Those that practice with them become better shooters. There is real time feedback that allows the shooter to better gauge how any particular wind direction and wind value affects the bullet. I'd rather use a marginal load and a set of wind flags than my best load without flags. It is not even up for debate.
To get back on topic, that video was grueling. I made it about 15 minutes and my eyes glazed over. I like tuners.
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Facts
That's exactly what I use mine for and I have seen the target show that time and time again
If you cant use seating depth the tuner is a great way to tighten things up on the ar
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
It is difficult to believe that in the year 2023 that there are still shooters spending countless dollars on every component imaginable EXCEPT a good set of wind flags.
That's me for now. I was just having that discussion yesterday. They're on my list.
I'm probably within $1000.00 of having enough components for more than a few years. Hope to have them in my possession in the next 6-8 months.
CharlieNC
Gold $$ Contributor
As I mentioned earlier, Vaughn sheds a bright light on this topic. He diagnosed targets from charge weight ladders to show the associated sinusoidal vibration amplitude is around 0.005" with a frequency around 10,000 cycles per second. Positive compensation at the speed of sound. Do you think a camera will detect this? With a bullet exit time of around 0.002 seconds, the barrel whip you see afterwards is pretty, but doesn't matter. I analyzed numerous ladder tests using Vaughn's approach to find the same results. The question is not what is happening, but how to use these results for improvement.
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