rijndael
Silver $$ Contributor
My excuse is that for the past number of years, all of my 100Y shooting was indoors ... no need for flags there.
ERIK & ERIC
- Thread starter Bill Norris
- Start date
My excuse is that for the past number of years, all of my 100Y shooting was indoors ... no need for flags there.
jimmymac
Jim McGregor
Amazing! Don't need flags. Just ask anyone that doesn't use them.
Here is a 200 yard score target I shot at 300 yards. I used the lines separating the individual targets and my sighter to get a good feel for my sight in and what my flags were showing me. Once satisfied, I picked my condition and went around the target feeling pretty sure of myself. Without flags that score target would be way different and not in a good way.
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BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
One of the things that most shooters need to understand, that most seem not to, is that sticks with surveyors tape attached to their tops, hanging down to just above the ground or grass are a LOT better than nothing. Buy a roll of surveyors tape, and a few 8" long 1 x 2s, cut them in half, point one end, attach the surveyors tape to the other end, and you are all set.
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
I think the original comment was in jest, however all my 1000 yard tuning I have done for the most part has been without flags. So to say you can not have success without them in long range, I dont agree. Why? In my opinion theres so much going on in 1000 yards you cant compute it all, so you have to make a decision on when to shoot and you need to do it fast. Now in a match setting, your not tuning. And you cant really choose when to shoot. You have to shoot in your 10 minute window and the goal is only to suck less than everyone else. So I will look more at flags, mirage, ext in a match. But you can say what you want, every gun I have tuned at 1k was not tuned watching flags. Most of my customers dont either. Its not that they dont work, its just the reality of 1kyd tuning. At 600 the trajectory is much flatter and the bullet is closer to the flags. You can put out 5 flags and get a good handle on things. Before going to 1k I did that and it worked very well. I had 4' white wind socks made out of very light nylon so I could see them out to 600. Thats when I was shooting more more midrange like 15 years ago. They worked great. Thats the other issue. You have to be able to SEE them. If theres a gap in the market, its that. Long range or at least mid range guys could use a quality flag thats visible to 600. My smiley flags are good to about 300 for me, thats it.
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I was trying to have some fun with the wind flag lovers and I knew I will rattle someones cage, they all assume that everyone is shooting short range where flags make sense I guess
I have no use for them in 600 or 1K competition
You shoot your sighters and go for score before the conditions change
I have no use for them in 600 or 1K competition
You shoot your sighters and go for score before the conditions change
jimmymac
Jim McGregor
I made no such assumption but I do think the vast majority of people shoot at yardages where using flags is of great benefit whether they compete or not. It is the quickest shortcut I know of to actually learn how to become a better marksman. If I can see a bullet hole on paper, I need flags set up.
Well with the new Freedom Benchrest format where you can shoot sighters and score anytime in the 10 minute match flags might make sense, I'll probably invest in a set and see if I can make them work in a 600yd match and I will definitely feel like one of the wind flag cool kids 
As to wind flags, try this. Take some surveyors tape and a couple of sticks or coat hangers and fashion a couple of makeshift flags with it. To see the value of having flags, intentionally fire a couple of rounds in COMPLETE REVERSAL of the wind. 100 yards is an eye opener but further gets even worse..fast. This is a great test for anyone to see the value in having and learning how to read flags but especially so to those that think wind won't bother that big bullet at only 100 yards. Lol! Just try it. It's darn near free and is an eye opener. Just pick an average day and let her rip in complete opposite conditions. Then do the same thing but try your best to shoot in exactly the same condition.
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
I have had flags for over 15 years. Why dont I bother to set them up when tuning at 1k? Its not because I havent. I am not talking about short range at all. I would not be caught dead without them at short range.
I think I understand your reasoning but my post is just a suggestion, not questioning you or your methods.
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
Then I would agree with you for those that have never shot over flags. And want to ad that everyone needs to come up with thier own way.
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I switched to the Forster FLS die to save time. I found that concentricity was just as good as the two part process with the Lee collet die and the Redding Body die so there was no advantage to my previous process. I had one batch of Lapua Match that I reloaded 22 times with the Lee without getting donuts. There is stilla bit of mystery in this reloading game for sure.
I found the same thing early on when I started annealing brass. I started using Imperial dry neck lube and no more problems. Found it more convenient than trying to either apply graphite with a brush or use the Imperial wax inside the case neck and then have to remove it.
They're way better than nothing. Hard to discern small angle chages, especially mostly head or tail and they max out fast but still better than nothing. When learning to read any flag, I think we all start by telling when NOT to shoot and ribbon will do that just fine. There is such thing as information overload too but you can't read what you can't see happening either. Anything can be a flag...grass, trees and mirage for example. Lots of grass and leaves around here but we filter that out, mentally and physically, to where it's not too much info at a time.
Mirage is at one place. That's it's biggest weakness. I use it but depending on conditions and distance,a lot of times I find myself using it to confirm what I see in the flags..that they are in agreement or at least doing the same thing each shot, as best I can.
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Hi, my name is Hank and I'm a tuner user too.
I really am a tuner user and it does seem to shorten the load development process, but I don't want to be. I'd prefer not removing steel from the end of my barrels for threading on tuners and I am compelled to check and double-check my tuner setting when taking rifles out of bags worrying that it moved--even a little...
I am not sure Eric, in the original post, or Bryan from AB is saying that tuners don't work. I think they are saying they don't know how they work, and, if they did, then we could possibly make better informed choices or utilize reliable and repeatable models as part of load development/rifle tuning.
One could find it curiously mysterious or, perhaps, a little shady to attribute sophisticated research and usage to a silent third party, John Myers, while claiming that you were sworn to secrecy about said research and usage, all the while selling a product based on these 'secrets.'
My take is this: if I really knew how to use the tuner--it would help me out not just in load development but also during a match when I detect the load has gone out of tune, however, the manufacturer/seller will only talk about the source and alleged benefits, but not reveal the important secrets and methods. That seems more like like sophisticated marketing for a device that is seen on numerous top-level shooter's rifles.
(All great shooters have barrel tuners. I bought a barrel tuner. Therefore, I must be a great...)
That said, this is still America and anybody should be able to say what they want and all of us grown men can spend our money on anything we want--as long as our wives don't find out!
Hank
I really am a tuner user and it does seem to shorten the load development process, but I don't want to be. I'd prefer not removing steel from the end of my barrels for threading on tuners and I am compelled to check and double-check my tuner setting when taking rifles out of bags worrying that it moved--even a little...
I am not sure Eric, in the original post, or Bryan from AB is saying that tuners don't work. I think they are saying they don't know how they work, and, if they did, then we could possibly make better informed choices or utilize reliable and repeatable models as part of load development/rifle tuning.
One could find it curiously mysterious or, perhaps, a little shady to attribute sophisticated research and usage to a silent third party, John Myers, while claiming that you were sworn to secrecy about said research and usage, all the while selling a product based on these 'secrets.'
My take is this: if I really knew how to use the tuner--it would help me out not just in load development but also during a match when I detect the load has gone out of tune, however, the manufacturer/seller will only talk about the source and alleged benefits, but not reveal the important secrets and methods. That seems more like like sophisticated marketing for a device that is seen on numerous top-level shooter's rifles.
(All great shooters have barrel tuners. I bought a barrel tuner. Therefore, I must be a great...)
That said, this is still America and anybody should be able to say what they want and all of us grown men can spend our money on anything we want--as long as our wives don't find out!
Hank
Agree. BUT, if you listen closely Eric was portraying a frame of mind that he was doubtful that a barrel even produced movement in the form that most commonly believe it does. Therefore how could a barrel tuner work ?
Hank, I'd be happy to be of help with exactly what you describe, by phone. The key is knowing what to do, when to do it and by how much. I have a test that is just a very methodical approach that shows you these very things. While there are differences between tuner makes, I'm happy to share with you this test and I find it to apply to virtually any tuner. Again, it's just a more methodical approach than many use. It's not re-inventing anything either. Just a simple way of breaking it down to small increments and correllating those to group shapes and where those groups form, both on paper and on the tuner, so you know which way to go, how far and when. It's not a secret. I go over this by phone with every tuner order. It's so predictable and repeatable that I'll tell you what you're gonna see before you shoot the test. I've played with charting air pressure and temps too. Yes, there is something to that approach too but i've never found it to be 100% spot on, but group shapes are. You have to remember, tuners do essentially the same thing as load work..changing bullet exit time relative to muzzle position, or vice versa. The end result is the same thing...a gun that is in tune because bullet exit is occurring at an optimal bbl position in its vibrational oscillation. How long have handloaders been in search of a magical formula that they can chart out 100% and be spot on in tune? Forever. So I wouldn't get too caught up in a formula but rather, learn to read group shapes and what they are telling you. This is what short range group shooters have been doing for decades and it's a proven method. I don't care whose tuner you have. If you call me I'll do my best to help you.
It is actually your tuner, the Ezell tuner, that I do use and I appreciate the time we spent on the phone. As a mid-range and long-range F-Class shooter it is sometimes easy to observe that there is more vertical in the downrange group than expected, and especially so, if you feel that the rifle has gone out of tune. It is more difficult to comprehend what has occurred in windy, heavy mirage, late afternoon sessions coupled with some fatigue.
Even using your method, it is not at all easy for me to see the pattern after 5 or so down range shots, recognize the pattern and have a good idea of how to turn the tuner. I honestly can't seem to remember more than the last two shots.
I use tuner because I believe it is better to have one than not, but I also know that I can tune a rifle w/o one just as well for a specific condition. If that condition changes dramatically like Spring to Summer here in Georgia, then I have to develop another load rather than finding a better tuner setting.
There is also the idea that a competitor might be able to improve performance during a match with a tuner change. To be honest, I have not even tried that because I am not confident that I see a pattern that I recognize and know what to do about that in the conditions mentioned above.
One last bonus thought. IMO, it would diminish this sport if all you had to do was plug in your case brand, cartridge, powder, projectile, primer and barrel details into your phone and out popped the perfect load. Finding a tolerant load or taking a risk on a hot-rod, narrow windowed load is all part of the sport.
I have a great deal of appreciation for all of you guys that have created tools, methods, apps and accessories that make our sport better. It's got to feel pretty good knowing you've left your mark in a very positive way on a sport you enjoy.
Hank
Even using your method, it is not at all easy for me to see the pattern after 5 or so down range shots, recognize the pattern and have a good idea of how to turn the tuner. I honestly can't seem to remember more than the last two shots.
I use tuner because I believe it is better to have one than not, but I also know that I can tune a rifle w/o one just as well for a specific condition. If that condition changes dramatically like Spring to Summer here in Georgia, then I have to develop another load rather than finding a better tuner setting.
There is also the idea that a competitor might be able to improve performance during a match with a tuner change. To be honest, I have not even tried that because I am not confident that I see a pattern that I recognize and know what to do about that in the conditions mentioned above.
One last bonus thought. IMO, it would diminish this sport if all you had to do was plug in your case brand, cartridge, powder, projectile, primer and barrel details into your phone and out popped the perfect load. Finding a tolerant load or taking a risk on a hot-rod, narrow windowed load is all part of the sport.
I have a great deal of appreciation for all of you guys that have created tools, methods, apps and accessories that make our sport better. It's got to feel pretty good knowing you've left your mark in a very positive way on a sport you enjoy.
Hank
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
Im a proponent of tuners. If you use them right. When I first started shooting for accuracy tuners were popular at my local range. I knew what a tuner was before I knew 99% of what goes into load development. The biggest problem with tuners is when the end user uses them as a short cut. Its very common and held back a lot of guys. In my opinion you should not touch it until the rifle is shooting to its potential through normal load development. Its why when a new shooter asks, I recommend doing one or two barrels without one first, then trying one. Im no expert on using one to tune during the match, but I can highly recommend not skipping any of the tuning process prior to using the tuner.
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