Electronic Targets

[LeoHuhta]

I would like to thank everyone who has contacted me and those who have replied to this initial request.
I owe a few folks phones calls back and that will happen.
Please keep this going it's a bunch of great info.

Thanks
Leo

 

[Bindi2]

There is one thing you people who want to put in a delay need to think about is cross shots and the mess time delays will cause.

 

[AlanPF]

There is one thing you people who want to put in a delay need to think about is cross shots and the mess time delays will cause.

That has been thought about. You delay the shot position information only. The fact that a shot (or more) has been recorded must still be indicated at the time it happens.

 

[Bindi2]

There is one thing you people who want to put in a delay need to think about is cross shots and the mess time delays will cause.

That has been thought about. You delay the shot position information only. The fact that a shot (or more) has been recorded must still be indicated at the time it happens.

Which one belongs to who and which shot will you alter off. The shooter wont know.

 

[6BRinNZ]

There is one thing you people who want to put in a delay need to think about is cross shots and the mess time delays will cause.

That has been thought about. You delay the shot position information only. The fact that a shot (or more) has been recorded must still be indicated at the time it happens.

Which one belongs to who and which shot will you alter off. The shooter wont know.

Have you read the ICFRA rules with respect to this situation on manual targets (two spotting discs, highest value marked)? IMO ETs with time delay doesn't change much (with respect to this example) - but ET's do/should force the documentation of new protocols - a lot of section F12 (as an example) should be written to include protocols for ETs.

 

[Bindi2]

There is one thing you people who want to put in a delay need to think about is cross shots and the mess time delays will cause.

That has been thought about. You delay the shot position information only. The fact that a shot (or more) has been recorded must still be indicated at the time it happens.

Which one belongs to who and which shot will you alter off. The shooter wont know.

Have you read the ICFRA rules with respect to this situation on manual targets (two spotting discs, highest value marked)? IMO ETs with time delay doesn't change much (with respect to this example) - but ET's do/should force the documentation of new protocols - a lot of section F12 (as an example) should be written to include protocols for ETs.

That gives an out come but dosent tell you which shot is yours to alter from in sighters particularly if one is wide in fishtailing winds or drop offs. We have been shooting ETs for 4yrs at club level. The F class do shoot faster than TR but that is more to do with the sling versus rifle in the rest. There were more than 25 cross fires at our Queens this year. It happened to a shooter I was scoring for as She was about to fire her first sighter. I stopped her sorted the problem then restarted her. She would have been more than a little peeved as she was an interstate team shooter and the cross firee division 3 or 4. Others were not so lucky they were left out to dry. ETs show a lack of discipline in some scorers to do the job at hand. Definitely no time delays. With ETs the scorer is no longer just a recorder.

 

[AlanPF]

Which one belongs to who and which shot will you alter off. The shooter wont know.

Which is the same as on paper targets. Next shot is an optional (in Australia at least).

 

[6BRinNZ]

There is one thing you people who want to put in a delay need to think about is cross shots and the mess time delays will cause.

That has been thought about. You delay the shot position information only. The fact that a shot (or more) has been recorded must still be indicated at the time it happens.

Which one belongs to who and which shot will you alter off. The shooter wont know.

Have you read the ICFRA rules with respect to this situation on manual targets (two spotting discs, highest value marked)? IMO ETs with time delay doesn't change much (with respect to this example) - but ET's do/should force the documentation of new protocols - a lot of section F12 (as an example) should be written to include protocols for ETs.

That gives an out come but dosent tell you which shot is yours to alter from in sighters particularly if one is wide in fishtailing winds or drop offs. We have been shooting ETs for 4yrs at club level. The F class do shoot faster than TR but that is more to do with the sling versus rifle in the rest. There were more than 25 cross fires at our Queens this year. It happened to a shooter I was scoring for as She was about to fire her first sighter. I stopped her sorted the problem then restarted her. She would have been more than a little peeved as she was an interstate team shooter and the cross firee division 3 or 4. Others were not so lucky they were left out to dry. ETs show a lack of discipline in some scorers to do the job at hand. Definitely no time delays. With ETs the scorer is no longer just a recorder.

Thats correct and its also the point (lets also not forget that its also the rules - which an ET with a time delay doesn't contravene or work around)...if you carry on reading the ICFRA rules you can see what the protocols are for scoring under those circumstances as well....

Not much more to say really - ETs are good possibly even great for the sport, but just because its technology and easy to use doesn't mean we shouldn't put some thought into its implementation and its future impact.

+1 AlanPF

 

[Bindi2]

I still only see the desire to put a time delay in as a means to penalize somebody who reads conditions and fires faster than you. With the advent of ETs the time on the mound which was calculated to allow for manual marking be shortened to 14 minutes. The shooter still has the same shooting time. There seems to be a paranoia about machine gunning, twin ports leading to a lack of condition reading skills, so what they wont win more comps than the readers unless the readers stop shooting. If the machine gunner is that good they will still win no matter how long the time delay is and will still be accused of machine gunning. People generally shoot at their own pace now. There is no need for a time delay. If you want to shoot Bisley style go and do it leave string alone, stop trying to make a hybrid match. ETs and Bisley style 2 up 45sec per shot go for it. That is 1minute longer than you get for string now need some machine gun training.

 

[effendude]

It always happens. 2 1/2 pages of good info and then BOOM, the thread is hijacked onto a different side issue. Darn it.
Scott

 

[suberjc]

Are there any US companies manufacturing e targets yet?
Is there a possibility systems will go down in price when other disciplines start using e targets? I guess that would be my prediction.

Gordy

I doubt if the total rifle competition market is large enough to produce rapid reduction in cost. Remember we aren't talking about the number of shooters, we are talking about the number of ranges. Now if everyone who owns a cell phone took up F-Class tomorrow then sure the number of ranges would grow,

 

[daniel.chisholm]

Are there any US companies manufacturing e targets yet?
Is there a possibility systems will go down in price when other disciplines start using e targets? I guess that would be my prediction.

Gordy

I doubt if the total rifle competition market is large enough to produce rapid reduction in cost. Remember we aren't talking about the number of shooters, we are talking about the number of ranges. Now if everyone who owns a cell phone took up F-Class tomorrow then sure the number of ranges would grow,

The cost reduction has already happened. Thirty years ago, when e-targets were first getting used in the Olympics, they cost $25-30,000 per lane. Ten years ago, they were down to $12,000-ish per lane. Nowadays you can get chamber target systems for $8-10,000 per lane (Kongsberg, OzScore, Hex Systems, etc), or open sensor systems for $3,500 per lane (Silver Mountain).

Further cost reductions might come, or they might not. If your business-case is such that you can afford to buy e-targets today at today's prices, you need to decide the benefits of buying them now at today's prices and starting to use them right away, vs. waiting a year or two to possibly (but not necessarily!) buy them at lower prices and waiting until 1-2 years time before you are able to start to use them. Then again if you have a sound business case to buy them at today's prices, it is likely that 1-2 years of use will more than pay for any likely cost reduction that might happen.

 

[kyreloader]

Just my opinion, but I applaud the effort and look forward to the day that I can shoot on ETs. I was trying to find a way that I could travel to Florida to shoot on their ET at the recent event, alas it was not in the cards for me.

I find it barbaric that we still shoot on technology that was created in the early century and likely not updated since then. The whole world is electronic (love it or hate it), but I am confused why some are so opposed to modernization of our shooting sport in regards to targets. We dont seem to mind when new powders, scopes, bullets, stocks, rests, rear bags, etc. come to the market and we jump on board, why the hesitation to also bring our targets into this electronic era?

Sorry for my rant and highjack. Ignore as you see fit.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Just my opinion, but I applaud the effort and look forward to the day that I can shoot on ETs. I was trying to find a way that I could travel to Florida to shoot on their ET at the recent event, alas it was not in the cards for me.

I find it barbaric that we still shoot on technology that was created in the early century and likely not updated since then. The whole world is electronic (love it or hate it), but I am confused why some are so opposed to modernization of our shooting sport in regards to targets. We dont seem to mind when new powders, scopes, bullets, stocks, rests, rear bags, etc. come to the market and we jump on board, why the hesitation to also bring our targets into this electronic era?

Sorry for my rant and highjack. Ignore as you see fit.

Actually I don't believe anyone that has posted on this thread is opposed to the modernisation and use of ET. Certainly I'm not. I do however have the luxury of shooting on either or both ETs or manual targets most weekends.

 

[spclark]

I find it barbaric that we still shoot on technology that was created in the early century and likely not updated since then.

Consider then that our "technology" for shooting is just as dated!

Per your comment we could be shooting with lasers and joysticks - in fact a lot of folks who might enjoy real bullets & powder smoke do just that - but we're not!

Electronic primers have been tried & pretty much forgotten....

US is behind the curve for sure but we'll catch up. It's up to those shooting now to work thru the changes ET'S will bring to our hobby & get on with it.

This topic is getting considerable input over on the USRIFLETEAMS.COM forums. Long range shooters aren't as vocal as those on the across-the-course forum. Moving yard lines and changing target dimensions adds another layer of complexity to the latter discipline, something the overseas systems don't have to cope with (along with rapid-fire!) but it can be done.

Gonna be informative to see what comes of the coming weekend's match event at AIM in Georgia, fully run on the Silver Mountain system.

 

[chuckbuster243]

I will be shooting in Blakely at AIM Sunday... I am interested in just seeing how much faster it will make the match. It sucks to be out there all day in the scorching GA heat. If its accurate as they claim I think it will take the slow pit service equation out and even that field. But you as a shooter still need to find a even pace and make good wind calls. The only thing I will miss is watching conditions from other target hits. Sometimes its nice for a weather report. Matt

 

[spclark]

It sucks to be out there all day in the scorching GA heat. If its accurate as they claim I think it Sometimes its nice for a weather report.

Agree on the 'report' thing; seeing everybody else off a couple rings causes me to pause & look again.

As for scorching this weekend? I don't think so! In fact you may want to wear your woolies & bring some gloves if your Southern blood's on the thinner side of W30. Got a cold front here in WI today, be there by tomorrow....

 

[chuckbuster243]

It sucks to be out there all day in the scorching GA heat. If its accurate as they claim I think it Sometimes its nice for a weather report.

Agree on the 'report' thing; seeing everybody else off a couple rings causes me to pause & look again.

As for scorching this weekend? I don't think so! In fact you may want to wear your woolies & bring some gloves if your Southern blood's on the thinner side of W30. Got a cold front here in WI today, be there by tomorrow....

Your right scorching this weekend not so much... The mid summer matches are the ones I would be referring to, 95+ degrees pulling pit duty with 70% humidity is rough. I shoot just for fun and that is not fun sometimes. Matt

 

[Coolhand]

I will be shooting in Blakely at AIM Sunday... I am interested in just seeing how much faster it will make the match. It sucks to be out there all day in the scorching GA heat. If its accurate as they claim I think it will take the slow pit service equation out and even that field. But you as a shooter still need to find a even pace and make good wind calls. The only thing I will miss is watching conditions from other target hits. Sometimes its nice for a weather report. Matt

With the Hexta System , a shooter can scroll through all the existing E Targets, we have 12 frames , so during a match if I want to maybe see how a particular shooters group is forming etc , just hit the appropriate button and go look but I agree , it was good to be able to look through my spotting scope which allowed me to see 4 frames either side of my target.

regards
Mike.

 

[FatBoy]

I'm sure this has been addressed but, what happens when one of the microphones/sensors gets shot during a match?

Also, 2.4Ghz is a common unlicensed microwave band which is (starting to be less common) widely used by cellular carriers for transport back haul on cell sites. Do the systems have the ability to detect interference and/or to switch to different channels to avoid interfering with someone else already in the band? Or having someone interfere with the data being sent to the line? Low power directional antennas?