Electronic devices at the F-Class nationals

[Immike]

Before you come up to the line we will have a little meeting/ training on how to use the Lenovo tablet that will be issued to you and your scorer.
The relay will not start until we are satisfied everyone is confident in what they are doing.
If you have trouble during your course of fire one of our friendly faces will help you get straightened out.
Remember our sport is growing and this system is one way to deal with the amount of shooters at a large event, the other option at Lodi would have been making the range 50 wide.

I feel like this is in very good hands, thank you so much!

Me too. Where I shoot, if you can't pull targets you can either bring someone who can pull 'em for you or find a different kind of shooting.

Let's give this a chance mozella , our founders took more risks than we toy with on here. They borrowed against their homes and sweated many work days to give us what we already take for granted. Pioneers are brave guys!

 

[B Nettesheim]

How are shot value challenges and crossfires handled on the electronic targets at Lodi ?

Notify a line officer of such occurrence and we will take care of it

 

[gibrass]

[QUOTE="Most ranges at which I've ever competed make every effort to accommodate shooters with issues pulling targets, so "inclusion" is not the real reason behind this either.

Not sure where all you have shot, but the places I've shot/shoot (Oak Ridge, Atterbury, Cincy, Camp Perry, Ft. Knox, Lima, Ft. Wayne, Malvern) if you show up to shoot, you pull targets. Lodi being the exception for MW Palma but even then the few paid pullers they have are spoken for. You are making a way bigger deal out of this than it really is. Also you can see the other shooters targets on the tablets just like you can through a spotting scope.[/QUOTE]

I shot a mid-range match today, this being my first match this year where targets were pulled. It was kinda nice seeing spotters in the targets, especially if I had an X, it provided an obvious "aiming point" for the next shot. After having shot about 5-6 matches before today on electronic targets, I did not find myself, however, looking at other targets "hits" to compare to mine. Pit service was good, but not as fast as electronic targets. It took a little longer to shoot, but had no issues. It was a hot day, and time in the pits was somewhat uncomfortable. For me, the biggest issue with electronic targets is figuring out where to prop the tablet for easy readability.

 

[Heman]

How are shot value challenges and crossfires handled on the electronic targets at Lodi ?

You will notify a line officer as stated before but as far as the targets themselves here is how it is handled.

Crossfires if you are the receiving target your score keeper (now observer) will hopefully notice a shot appear when you didn't shoot. The velocity will be higher than the velocity of your shots. The farther over the farther it will be. If you are the shooter who does crossfire your score keeper/observer will not that a shot did not appear and mark it as a miss.

Now as far as challenges, sorry you are out of luck. The score is what it is. Unlike with manual targets there is no, well this is close so I'll give it to him, or hey I'm in the lead and I'm going to make this guy earn it. Also the well the hole is outside but it tore the target so maybe I'll count that mark. The human element is taken out. When the hit location is plotted the plug circle is drawn and if it cuts/touches the line you get that value. The accuracy of the system is taken care of during the calibration. So in the case of our range you can challenge but you will loose, because the system is the final say.

The only exception and this is being written into the NRA rules for 10.17.8(b) for approval by the rules committee involves the challenge of a missing shot this is what Walt wrote up following my conversation with him and Denny last week at Perry.

If the system is capable, the target in question and each adjacent target's electronic field will be examined to determine if a missing shot can be located. If it cannot be located or the system does not have such capabilities and (2) two previous shots by the competitor are in the scoring rings of the target and there have been no cross-fires on (2) targets either side on the position being considered, the competitor will be directed to fire another shot on the target and if it registers the missing shot will be ignored.


NRA rules state about a backer, scoring/sighter screens, etc. but in the conversation with Walt about some of the rules not applying to SMT, etc. He said the rules that don't apply you put in a match bulletin stating they will not be enforced. I'm stating this before people quote the rule about a target backer, etc. that is in the NRA rules.

 

[6BRinNZ]

When the hit location is plotted the plug circle is drawn and if it cuts/touches the line you get that value.

Heman - you ok for a PM to discuss this point? We are using SMTs as well in NZ and I want to understand this a little further.

I've got some pictures we could talk to.

 

[MattPeetz]

The human element is taken out. When the hit location is plotted the plug circle is drawn and if it cuts/touches the line you get that value. The accuracy of the system is taken care of during the calibration. So in the case of our range you can challenge but you will loose, because the system is the final say.

Heman
What size is this plug circle?
Does it account for each different caliber?

 

[Heman]

Heman - you ok for a PM to discuss this point? We are using SMTs as well in NZ and I want to understand this a little further.

I've got some pictures we could talk to.

Sure I can.

The default setting is .30cal. There is the ability to change it to the plug that you are using, but I don't know and I haven't asked. With the default setting of .30cal it is just like the old .30cal rule that was used in the NRA years ago.

 

[Mudeat]

Now as far as challenges, sorry you are out of luck. The score is what it is. Unlike with manual targets there is no, well this is close so I'll give it to him, or hey I'm in the lead and I'm going to make this guy earn it. Also the well the hole is outside but it tore the target so maybe I'll count that mark. The human element is taken out. When the hit location is plotted the plug circle is drawn and if it cuts/touches the line you get that value. The accuracy of the system is taken care of during the calibration. So in the case of our range you can challenge but you will loose, because the system is the final say.

Pretty arogent answer, but you are way wrong. The shooter has the final say not the target system. Why? The shooter will answer with his/her feet if they feel that they have been screwed.

 

[Heman]

Pretty arogent answer, but you are way wrong. The shooter has the final say not the target system. Why? The shooter will answer with his/her feet if they feel that they have been screwed.

Not arrogance, just stating the fact. When we tested one of our systems 15 shots the shots were about a mm at most off in X and Y. But the concept that people don't understand is it doesn't matter where the shot hits on the paper target that is just for aiming puposes the target that counts is the electronic target. At our range we have an offset, you aim at the X, but when your rounds hit they will hit aprox 10" at any distance for an X. So while you aiming at the paper X the scoring X is lower. Add to that, you don't have anyone in the pits covering the holes, the whole idea is mute. Bottom line it doesn't matter where you hit on paper it is where the hit shows on the e-target monitor that matters.

As far as errors the e-target is the same dimension all of the time. At our range and here at Camp Perry during nationals. I've seen the full face targets glued and they aren't stretched out so the rings are slightly distorted. Repair centers never perfectly match up so your either getting cheated or you are getting extra space. If you take your time you can put on a repair center and slightly stretch it out farther making the rings a little bigger. E-targets you can't do that, the X ring at 1k will allways be 5" on the fclass and 10" on the sling target.

As stated before much of the negativity are from shooters who haven't shot on them and just want to bitch and complain without ever trying them. This is no different than on the NM forum when scope were allowed for service rifle and you would have thought by some people comment that the sport was going to end because of that, which it hasn't and has allowed more people to get back in it. E-targets are the same way.

 

[daniel.chisholm]

....... this is being written into the NRA rules for 10.17.8(b) for approval by the rules committee involves the challenge of a missing shot this is what Walt wrote up following my conversation with him and Denny last week at Perry.
... SNIP....

Heman thanks for the update. What Walt is writing up sounds like a good practical well thought out improvement. Running through the various scenarios I can think of, it ought to accompany the desired goal (don't ever give the shooter a miss he doesn't deserve, but, as much as possible do give him the misses he deserves.)

 

[B Nettesheim]

Not arrogance, just stating the fact. When we tested one of our systems 15 shots the shots were about a mm at most off in X and Y. But the concept that people don't understand is it doesn't matter where the shot hits on the paper target that is just for aiming puposes the target that counts is the electronic target. At our range we have an offset, you aim at the X, but when your rounds hit they will hit aprox 10" at any distance for an X. So while you aiming at the paper X the scoring X is lower. Add to that, you don't have anyone in the pits covering the holes, the whole idea is mute. Bottom line it doesn't matter where you hit on paper it is where the hit shows on the e-target monitor that matters.

As far as errors the e-target is the same dimension all of the time. At our range and here at Camp Perry during nationals. I've seen the full face targets glued and they aren't stretched out so the rings are slightly distorted. Repair centers never perfectly match up so your either getting cheated or you are getting extra space. If you take your time you can put on a repair center and slightly stretch it out farther making the rings a little bigger. E-targets you can't do that, the X ring at 1k will allways be 5" on the fclass and 10" on the sling target.

As stated before much of the negativity are from shooters who haven't shot on them and just want to bitch and complain without ever trying them. This is no different than on the NM forum when scope were allowed for service rifle and you would have thought by some people comment that the sport was going to end because of that, which it hasn't and has allowed more people to get back in it. E-targets are the same way.

This explanation is spot on

 

[spclark]

(don't ever give the shooter a miss he doesn't deserve, but, as much as possible do give him the misses he deserves.)

Indeed.... Midwest Palma this year I was clean going back to 1,000. Clean for six, maybe seven shots then... uh oh, why's my target taking so long?

Yep, double reds.

No cross-fires, no reports of sand kicked onto pullers, or an impact above target.

No points either for that round.

Ended up dropping just 3, besides the 10 for that disappointment.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Sure I can.

The default setting is .30cal. There is the ability to change it to the plug that you are using, but I don't know and I haven't asked. With the default setting of .30cal it is just like the old .30cal rule that was used in the NRA years ago.

Heman - PM sent.

 

[Heman]

Just a clarification to the post I mentioned earlier about how the shot is calculated and scored. In talking with Wayne, the white circle you see is a graphical circle. The actual shot plug is smaller. I'm mentioning this because 6BRinNZ sent pics where the rings crossed the line but they were not scored up.

As far as accuracy of the targets if I could have had my phone in the pits today in Viale I had the prime example of how e-targets are more accurate. The LR faces we were shooting on today for palma had wrinkles in them. When we put the LR-C-C over them the top rings lined up perfectly but the bottom rings didn't. The repair center 8 rings were larger than the LR face 8 rings. So if you put a shot at 6 o'clock on the LR face it would be a 8 but if you used the line that would complete the ring on the LR-C-C it would be a 9. I asked a couple people and it was a 50/50 split on who would give an 8, who would give a 9. With e-targets it is always the same target dimension and the human factor does not come into play.

The other rule change that is coming and the exact wording is still packed away as I haven't unpacked yet is that with e-targets when scoring rapids instead of writing the number of value hits for rapids (i.e. X-4, 10-4, 9-2, 8-0, etc.) you will now write the order the shots impact the target just like slow fire (X,10,10,9, X, X, etc.) what this will do is instead of needing to have a shoot off for a tie in rapids it will now just go to creedmore sine with e-targets you now know the order the shots came in.

Dan, what you stated is what Walt and Denny both stated. The other situation we talked about was if a shooter is shooting 10's and X's and then the target shows a hit 8moa low and 5moa left. Which happened during our Mid-range regional. When this happens its because the connection to the top sensor is loose. I told them we didn't accept that shot and gave the shooter another shot and they both agreed it is an observable target malfunction and the shooter should not be punished. This is not what CMP is doing at Anniston with the KTS targets, where their targets make no mistakes and it is always the shooters fault, but that is another discussion.........

 

[spclark]

Looking forward to WGC'S Grande Finale weekend scheduled Aug. 13-14 to wring everything out now that their SMT system is ready for us.

So far so good. Today's 80-round match got started a little late but with 2 relays we finished at 11:45. No hiccups.

Tomorrow's all slow fire at 600 yards.

 

[Ringostar]

Is it 4 gun 600 time already? Good luck to all. Steve, let us know how things function. I'll be back to shoot next month.

 

[B Nettesheim]

Is it 4 gun 600 time already? Good luck to all. Steve, let us know how things function. I'll be back to shoot next month.

Everything went well today. We shot 4 strings with 2 relays and i didn't have any problems with the target system. Its kinda wierd being done at noon. This system is sweet!!!

 

[BobLor]

So far so good. Today's 80-round match got started a little late but with 2 relays we finished at 11:45. No hiccups.

Tomorrow's all slow fire at 600 yards.

I shoot on SMT E targets at a local range and they calibrate the targets so the electronics thinks the center is 1 MOA above the target face center X. Then the shooters just add 1 MOA of elevation to their usual distance sight setting, but aim at the center X or hold off from the target face center line as they see fit for wind. This keeps the X and 10 ring from being all shot up, the shot up area is up in the 9 ring. Does anyone know if Lodi is thinking of doing something similar?

 

[Heman]

When I was at Camp Perry shooting Earl and I were talking, I told him how we calibrate 10" low of the center. Explained how we did it and why. Said it made sense. Don't know if he is going to do that or not.

 

[B Nettesheim]

I shoot on SMT E targets at a local range and they calibrate the targets so the electronics thinks the center is 1 MOA above the target face center X. Then the shooters just add 1 MOA of elevation to their usual distance sight setting, but aim at the center X or hold off from the target face center line as they see fit for wind. This keeps the X and 10 ring from being all shot up, the shot up area is up in the 9 ring. Does anyone know if Lodi is thinking of doing something similar?

The last time I helped out on calibration we zeroed it to the center of the target . I don't think that it has changed, we all know that it doesn't matter where the shots actually land. Plus then if the shots are landing on center you will have a better knowledge of your zero. Earl is a stickler on the presentation of a good target when you look down range so you can expect a new center every morning.