Electro Induction Annealer (video)

[Grimstod]

Lol I am with you there.

 

[loneranger04]

I was drawn to induction annealing because it looked like it would be more consistent than the torch and socket method and much less bulky than a Bench Source or Giraurd. The cost is nearly the same between those two gas models and an Annie so I went with the Annie. Takes up very little space and is very easy to use. It took a long time to get however, so far, works as advertised. I've done somewhere around a thousand rounds of brass with it so far and am still learning how to use it but, for the cost, seems to be a great little machine. I like the feel of how easy the bullet slides into the case after annealing. I can't tell you how well or even if it has improved accuracy and consistency but I'm sure time will tell.
I don't know if induction annealing is the future for the reloader but I certainly think it has it's advantages.

 

[itchyTF]

Doesn't the Annie's coil get hot after 10 cycles or so?

 

[Mozella]

I think you completally missunderstood the post. Those were questions. Lol. Anyway you have a great point about the firing process. But does the chamber get hot enough to anneal the brass? Most mettals only change or except forine contaminants when they are hot right?

Nope. You don't need high temperatures to contaminate metals. Dip your gold wedding band into some mercury some time at room temperature and see what happens. Hint: Use a wedding band from a previous marriage which was to a woman you now really hate.

Anyway, temperatures inside the cartridge goes up to around 5000F, plenty hot to melt not only the brass, but the rifle and the shooter too. Of course, because the time interval is so short, none of this happens and neither does the brass become annealed. It takes both time and temperature to change the grain structure of metals and annealing is done at MUCH lower temperature and over a MUCH longer time span.

In fact, because the brass changes shape during firing, it actually work hardens (the opposite of annealing) in spite of the extremely high temperature.

Bottom line: I can see some advantages for induction heating, including annealing in a factory setting. But for a typical home hand-loader I would say the cost, complication, reliability, and repair issues far outweigh any advantages. Of course, that isn't to say induction annealing is "bad"; it's just that I can't justify it.

And, until someone can point me to some scientific evidence that heating cartridge brass in a propane flame to around 400C causes some problems, I'll continue to do just that.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

............ snip ...............
I am no metallurgist and only have theory to go on here. "With a gas system you are bombarding the brass with impurities while it is hot thus over time changing the metal." ...... snip ...........

Well, I'm no metallurgist either; however, I studied quite a bit of metallurgy as part of my formal education. I'm not aware of any published literature confirming this theory, are you? If so, please point me in the right direction so that I can find it. I'm curious because you put the statement in quotations as if it were copied from a book or other document.

If it's not from published liturature, I wonder if the theory is all your own developed by just thinking about it or is it something you discovered by empirical evidence?

Assuming that the act of exposing brass to burning propane must surely be doing something and that something must certainly be bad makes no sense to me. First of all, if that were the case, it seems to me that somebody would have heard about it before. After all, people have been heating brass with propane for a long long time. And we're not talking about welding here, or brazing, or even soldering where joint contamination might be a genuine concern.

Furthermore, if heat, brass, and impurities were a concern from a structural standpoint, it would seem that smokeless powder burning inside a cartridge case would be the last thing brass would want to experience. Perhaps we should all be shooting air guns powered by argon.

This has to be the best post of the day. I am impressed and appreciate the input. And I was thinking a couple posts earlier I made a mistake getting the Giraud. Phew!!!

Good info here folks. Thank you.

 

[loneranger04]

Doesn't the Annie's coil get hot after 10 cycles or so?

I anneal 50-200 cases at a time without any problems.

 

[Dakota_Mike]

I usually anneal 50-100 at a time and haven't had any issues with the annie. Have probably done ~1500 cases so far. I did add a fan blowing on the coil to help keep it from overheating.

Here are a few pics of my setup. I need to get a smaller power supply and replace the motor that spins the case as my cheap motor isn't very quiet.

 

[R.Morehouse]

That's a nice set up. I do a few different size cases so I went to Amazon and got some bamboo tongs that are usually used for plucking bread out of toasters and hold my cases with them and give a half twist for rotation. It works well for me. I do 50 at a time with out overheating but I have never overheated it to come to that #. I DO like your fan idea, I am going to adopt it as well. 8)

 

[Dakota_Mike]

All I have to do for different cases is use a different spacer under the annie to change the height. I also have a couple different shuttles for 223, 308 and mag cases. By turning while heating I know there are no hot spots and it has proven itself at 600 for consistency. There is no way I could hold it in exactly the same spot by hand.

 

[waldo1979]

Back to the original post, is the unit going for sale or is the inventor willing to share his design? I'd like to see a schematic for the induction component. Maybe it's possible to reuse electronics from an old stove?

Designing a high voltage IC is probably beyond my skill set as it seems highly dangerous.

 

[Grimstod]

the electronics are the same as an Annie. The inventor has just added a lot of extra features to make cooling and feading easy and fast.

 

[itchyTF]

Re: OP, I believe you can get the schematic (not the timing part, optical sensor or solenoid control) for the Roy 1200 on Fluxeon's website. The Roy 1200 is what this unit started from.

 

[centershot]

Howis .223 military brass annealed when it is new?

 

[Grimstod]

This is before it is necked.
https://youtu.be/Ira3dmlclQ4

 

[McFred]

Bottom line: I can see some advantages for induction heating, including annealing in a factory setting. But for a typical home hand-loader I would say the cost, complication, reliability, and repair issues far outweigh any advantages. Of course, that isn't to say induction annealing is "bad"; it's just that I can't justify it.

My Cost: $40 + a power supply I already had.
Complication? 2 FETS, 2 chokes, 2 Diodes, 4 resistors, an SSR, a switch, a hobby pump and some copper plumbing.
Reliability? I've annealed a few thousand .223 and 7mm Mag brass without an issue.
Repair issues? A soldering iron and a multimeter, and a thorough understanding of the theory of operation.

Besides, it's fast. I can manually anneal 300 .223 cases in a sitting in 20 minutes. It takes less than 8 seconds to heat a 30-06 case from ambient to red-hot.
Benchtop real estate is less than half a cubic foot now that my friend and I have reduced the heart of the induction driver to the size of a matchbox, not including work coil, and made everything water cooled; no fans.

I did the blow torch thing for years. It is, literally, a waste of my time. That's my 'justification.'

 

[JimSC]

I have to agree with Mozella in that there is no need to get over complicated. For years benchrest and Palma shooters seemed to struggle along with no annealing whatsoever in the beginning then advanced to plumbers torches with cordless drills. I do recall some of them shooting some pretty good scores before induction annealing was even a thought in anyone's head. Then when only semi comprehensive test of annealing I have read indicated it did nothing in terms of accuracy or brass life I am back on the skeptical side.

I use a plumbers torch powered Annealeeze and it seems to do what is was designed to do and is convenient to use. I set it up with the Templaq 700 stuff and get the pretty rainbow on my necks and shoulders but I am beginning to wonder if I am accomplishing anything using it.

 

[Grimstod]

If nothing else I can at least assure you that what you "felt" about gas and "impurities" is wrong. Bottled gases are used with brass filler rod to braze steel, cast iron and other ferrous metals and those bottled gases include acetylene. Which is far "dirtier" than the very clean, dry and almost "sterile" propane used for things like handheld propane torches, propane-fired Coleman lanterns, propane-fired Coleman cookstoves, etc. I don't know where you live but here in my neck of the woods in the midwest U.S. we burn propane in our stoves, water heaters and furnaces and I don't think that would be the case if propane were somehow loaded with "impurities". How long had you been shooting and reloading and apparently throwing away brass prematurely that could have lasted much longer by being annealed periodically before you decided your brass was worth keeping "alive" longer via annealing but before you decided to borrow your friend's machine to avoid "polluting" it with impurities using gas to anneal? And have you purchased your OWN induction annealing machine or are you still borrowing the benefits of your buddy's machine? And as satisfied "user" of an induction annealing machine convinced of its superiority to gas, how did you end up here on an induction annealing machine "review" or "report" thread?

Actually my knowledge on this has come a long way. Annealing marks on brass is the evaporation of the zink in it. Thus gas torches do eventually lessen the purity of your brass, if you can consider the removal of an important component a pollution. This is info I received while taking a tour of the labs at Peterson Cartridge Co.

Did build my own machine actually and am very happy. By the way I started this thread. So what exactly is your deal on wondering how I go on this thread?

 

[JimSC]

Actually my knowledge on this has come a long way. Annealing marks on brass is the evaporation of the nickel in it. Thus gas torches do eventually lessen the purity of your brass

I have to call BS on that. There is no nickle in common cartridge or yellow brass. A list of brass alloys and there composition can be found here

https://www.thebalance.com/composition-of-common-brass-alloys-2340109.

Commercial brass such as Lapua is annealed using a production induction based annealer and they come out with the discoloration and cases annealed using a Amp do as well

One would think with dozens if not hundreds of articles and reviews of annealing equipment on various shooting web magazines and blogs there would be at least a few where some enterprising author had did a indepth review comparing SD's, groups and brass life on annealed and non annealed cases. I can't find a single one except Litz's book where he used a Amp and found no benefits at all in his initial testing

 

[Grimstod]

Warning. I had a typo. I Meant Zink. This is what happens when i type stuff at 2am.

 

[JimSC]

Warning. I had a typo. I Meant Zink. This is what happens when i type stuff at 2am.

The oxidation marks once again are caused by the hot metal reacting to the oxygen in the atmosphere. Induction annealed factory cases show the same marks unless they are left unpolished like Lapua and Peterson. BTW I would love to be able to justify upgrading to an AMP , but I will need some more convincing. Perhaps if a reputable web site like Accurate Shooter (hint hint) would run a comprehensive test similar to the one Litz has started in his last book I would drop the bucks on one