Ejectors vs accurcy
- Thread starter Alex Wheeler
- Start date
tom
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Alex Wheeler
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Got a link?
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Way too many spring ejectors out there in benchrest guns to be an issue. When they came around there was plenty of non ejector guns next to them on the line to not notice if there was an issue. Then the drop ports came around for a couple seasons about 15yrs ago and still didnt knock em off but scared enough to see them die off
Jud96
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Starts around the 11:30 mark and goes on to about the 22 minute mark. Seems a little too deep to me but everyone has their opinions.
Northridge
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Now for my version, not all extractor ejector combinations are created equal, some versions "extractor" are more passive in capturing the rim and some are not passive enough when capturing the rim but in regard to the plunger eject side of the conversation short of kelbly"s static eject all plungers have a reasonable poundage to function clean, yes you can soften that poundage but its there period. where the problem can affect a tune or a rifles ability to group with out a shot leaving a tune quadrant directly revolves around jamming bullets softly or what we call a "soft jam" a deep jam will negate the tuning problem and jumping bullets more than your case is bumped will rid you of this induced problem. do to the plunger having pressure it requires pressure from cartridge to push plunger backward resulting in a false headspace as plunger pushes case forward until rim takes up end play with the front of the extractor claw. depending on the action type the clearance on claw to rim can be from .001- alot say .010+ so as plunger pushes case forward and none passive extractor resists capturing case this takes up all bump in cartridge case as you are clearing locking lugs forcing bullet into the lands the bump amount more. the problem revolves around the seating window meaning, pretend with me here, I'm making this number up 2.800 is your seating window not 2.799 not 2.801 but 2.800 for the resolution we shoot at long range this is it not a .010th window to the good not here. so when you go running your gun swift a close bolt swift you just pushed the bolt beyond clearing the locking lug and picked up .002th more to your soft jam now causing a .500th-1.5" difference on point of impact I promise go test it as I have. how you can reduce the infraction is closing the bolt fast but smooth when you close the handle. if your not sure what I mean by fast but smooth or fast but soft on bolt close watch a video of Tom Mousel shooting then you will get the picture. depending on how a receiver is set up be it on purpose or shit house luck can play a roll in reducing this concern and like I said jumping bullets and heavy jam will resist this condition or will be omitted from this conversation but it is or can be a problem to the less aware. really not the plunger or ejector as a individual part but do to the fact it requires force to capture case and plunger by default pushing case forward can degrade accuracy if your slamming the bolt firmly forward as you are cycling bolt, if you slam bolt forward hard enough you can and will change bump of cartridge as well. remove your firing pin and close bolt now grab handle and push bolt forward and back tell me what you see? this movement or end play will take up headspace changing jam seating I promise. watch a firing line for a afternoon tell me what you witness, more often then not shooters are pumping shots? most are running swift and hard closing this there bolt. how many tuners shoot a soft jam? alot Lol i've been aware of this situation for some time but where I truly started putting to an to together was shooting ladders verses game day targets. Ladders in zones that you know shoot don't develop kicked shots over and over good targets but then on game day kicked shots hmm why!! hmm why!! well as I pondered and found the common denominator was and still is when I shoot ladders they are slow but deliberate I'm shooting just that slow and smooth but on game day I apparently needed to spank the ass of my receiver resulting in these kicked shots, well what I discovered was in the text above..
hard to get out in text go's long to attempt..
Shawn Williams
hard to get out in text go's long to attempt..
Shawn Williams
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Like the Special Forces People say “slow is smooth, smooth is fast”. I agree with the above concept, but if I close My bolt too hard, the rifle is going to fire.
Yes, the subject question can be affected by jam, but as mentioned, it cannot be relied upon because the bullet can be pushed further into the lands and or, pushed further back into the case.
What I think can be relied upon is Case Base to Shoulder Datum Dimension. If this dimension is “o”, then the effects of plunger, spring, and extractor are negated. Hard jam of the case, if You will. If the shoulder is bumped 002”, that gives the system that much play to work with. With the case secured in the chamber between the bolt face and the chamber shoulder, the problem has to go away. But, we were told decades ago this was bad for accuracy. The mouse turd in a shoe box declaration. Eric Cortina certainly agrees? We could attempt to solve one problem with zero head space, and bring back an old one.
Testing could provide proof of the theory. But to Me, testing is not 100% because it assumes every shot was broken under the same condition, which is unlikely. Best we can do is get a good average.
Now I need to purge all this out of My head before the next match
Edit: I watched the Primal Rights film after I posted this.
Yes, the subject question can be affected by jam, but as mentioned, it cannot be relied upon because the bullet can be pushed further into the lands and or, pushed further back into the case.
What I think can be relied upon is Case Base to Shoulder Datum Dimension. If this dimension is “o”, then the effects of plunger, spring, and extractor are negated. Hard jam of the case, if You will. If the shoulder is bumped 002”, that gives the system that much play to work with. With the case secured in the chamber between the bolt face and the chamber shoulder, the problem has to go away. But, we were told decades ago this was bad for accuracy. The mouse turd in a shoe box declaration. Eric Cortina certainly agrees? We could attempt to solve one problem with zero head space, and bring back an old one.
Testing could provide proof of the theory. But to Me, testing is not 100% because it assumes every shot was broken under the same condition, which is unlikely. Best we can do is get a good average.
Now I need to purge all this out of My head before the next match
Edit: I watched the Primal Rights film after I posted this.
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JMayo
Silver $$ Contributor
Well hell,
Now i have the excuse ... Er reason,
for the 2 clicks high, 2 clicks right shots i keep having at VFS.
I'm not able to add any fact or experience to this thread.
But it does seem that the BR masses would have picked up on any significant gain by removing the ejector.
Now i have the excuse ... Er reason,
for the 2 clicks high, 2 clicks right shots i keep having at VFS.
I'm not able to add any fact or experience to this thread.
But it does seem that the BR masses would have picked up on any significant gain by removing the ejector.
Of course we obsess over every little thing...That's much of what accuracy is all about. But in the end, learning to read good flags will make a HUGE difference in our shooting, vs little or nothing from things like this. If you can't read the flags, how can any of us determine the value of the smallest details. In the end, just be sure you aren't stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime.
There was an article in Precision Shooting years ago about not using ejectors, I don't use one in my Dasher it's an old BAT B with the slide Extractor and I've tried everything to get it to eject the cases. sometime it will sometimes it don't. So I took the dame thing out and can't swear it makes a difference but it's definitely slower.
Joe Salt
Joe Salt
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
I dont think id be using that dangerous of a rifle nor want to be on the line with it. If you cant slam the bolt closed and locked in one swift motion you really should fix that.Like the Special Forces People say “slow is smooth, smooth is fast”. I agree with the above concept, but if I close My bolt too hard, the rifle is going to fire.
Yes, the subject question can be affected by jam, but as mentioned, it cannot be relied upon because the bullet can be pushed further into the lands and or, pushed further back into the case.
What I think can be relied upon is Case Base to Shoulder Datum Dimension. If this dimension is “o”, then the effects of plunger, spring, and extractor are negated. Hard jam of the case, if You will. If the shoulder is bumped 002”, that gives the system that much play to work with. With the case secured in the chamber between the bolt face and the chamber shoulder, the problem has to go away. But, we were told decades ago this was bad for accuracy. The mouse turd in a shoe box declaration. Eric Cortina certainly agrees? We could attempt to solve one problem with zero head space, and bring back an old one.
Testing could provide proof of the theory. But to Me, testing is not 100% because it assumes every shot was broken under the same condition, which is unlikely. Best we can do is get a good average.
Now I need to purge all this out of My head before the next match
Edit: I watched the Primal Rights film after I posted this.
At IBS and GBA Bench Rest matches, nobody slams bolts. Not even the Factory rifle shooters. Not if they want to be at all competitive. It upsets the rifle in the bags and that is to be avoided.
In these matches, safety is assured by observing COLD RANGE protocol. That is explained in the rule books, strictly adhered to, and is available to anyone to read and understand.
In My short experience in BR shooting, I have witnessed a few unintended discharges. Once on the bench next to Me, by a very experienced shooter, who also happened to be the Match Director. He was shooting a high end rifle, built by one of the premier Rifle Smiths in the country. You don’t slam the bolt on a high end Bix & Andy trigger, set at 1 ounce or less. In strict adherence to the safety rules, this lead to his disqualification.
This post is perhaps and unintended hack, and to the OP, I apologize for that.
Perhaps We can return to the theoretical discussion of what goes on inside a rifle chamber, before and after, the primer ignites? Rather or not I am deemed worthy of pulling up a chair with the thrash hands.
When I install a Bix n Andy trigger on my BAT actions I beat that bolt like it was a Dallas Cowboy until the sear engagement is set correctly at which time it will hold. Don’t lecture me about how it can’t be done safely. I don’t base where or who you can sit with by what you shoot FYI.
OK. That’s what You do. But many people I have had the pleasure of shooting with do other wise. I do not own a Bix & Andy trigger, and with the failures I have witnessed, I don’t think I want to. They seem to be very fragile to foreign matter, dirt.
I AM NOT LECTURING ANYONE. I am open to ideas from anyone, regardless of there experience or expertise.
I am looking forward to testing which could shed light on the theories and questions relating to the subject of this thread. Something I cannot do.
Ejectors? We don't need no stinking ejectors!
Ledd Slinger
Silver $$ Contributor
Whoa now! Don’t put all BnA triggers into one big ball of wax with the same bad rep. You can read all day about Jewell benchrest trigger failures as well so pick your poison. Those BR competition style triggers, no matter what brand, are not meant to handle dirt, dust, and moisture without eventually running into trouble.
If you want something resistant to dirt and whatever else you can throw at it then the BnA TacSport Pro is one of the best and most durable triggers I have ever used. Have a couple of them on large hard hitting magnum hunting rifles for a few years. I have them set at about 4-6 oz (I think they will go all the way down to 2 or 3 oz?) They have been thru mud, rain, snow, and -25F temps without ever a failure. I would without a doubt take a BnA TS Pro over any other trigger I’ve ever used. Top notch quality for sure.
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I think we should see more ejectors like Grunig and Elmiger designed. It’s neat because you can turn it off without disassembling the bolt.
anyways on topic, I have never noticed a difference. I fancy the ejector for ease of use.
anyways on topic, I have never noticed a difference. I fancy the ejector for ease of use.
The subject at hand seems to be asking if there is an accuracy advantage/disadvantage to a spring loaded plunger pressing against the base of the case. I've stated my experience, that being that I have never seen a difference in BR rifles/competition. I wouldn't worry about the spring pressure, for the reasons that have already been stated. But another factor or aspect of this subject is in regard to action design and stiffness. Case in point...a drop port requires neither an ejector nor another port being cut in the side of an action and how that affects harmonics and action flex or better stiffness.
Just thought I'd toss this out there, being as how it's actually relevant to the op. How does this apply to barrel harmonics?
I've got my own findings but I'd be interested in hearing others". The effects on strictly stiffness are calculable but what are real world results?
Just thought I'd toss this out there, being as how it's actually relevant to the op. How does this apply to barrel harmonics?
I've got my own findings but I'd be interested in hearing others". The effects on strictly stiffness are calculable but what are real world results?
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