E-Targets for F-Class

[GSS]

I am sure you can but instead of starting where the world is at you may not catch up till after you have made the same mistakes we have but then we will have moved on again.

Bindi2,
Would you be willing to start a new thread to educate us with the Objective information and data that has formed your opinions you are basing all of these types of statements on?

I for one think it would be very helpful to many and much more constructive and helpful while us on this side of the world / water catch up.

If your goal is to help the overall process you will have info that is valuable and helpful to many of us.

Please....

Thank You,
George

 

[sdean]

I am sure you can but instead of starting where the world is at you may not catch up till after you have made the same mistakes we have but then we will have moved on again.

Shame on you if you can't build something for 10,000 better than a 1000 dollar unit. We do not have the world paying for ours. Just a fact of life.

 

[GeoffR]

Shame on you if you can't build something for 10,000 better than a 1000 dollar unit. We do not have the world paying for ours. Just a fact of life.

I think you misunderstand.

Here in Australia most if not all states provide a system of funding grants to all sorts of organisations for all sorts of purposes. Not just rifle clubs wanting to purchase ET's. It could be the local tennis club looking for assistance to purchase new nets, or paint to fix up the clubhouse. I think it is simply part of what society here expects - and elsewhere I suppose. Taxpayer money get used for all sorts of things - making roads, building bridges, and helping sporting and other community organisations to function.

Loss of sporting clubs and other like organisations would be considered detrimental to society overall. Governments of both main flavours hold to this view be they "left" or "right" leaning. (I'm not sure we really have any "left" leaning governments here these days).

Organisations have to apply for grant funding. Most are unsuccessful. If you wanted to upgrade your club's bar you may well dip out. Furthermore, most if not all grants these days require the beneficiary to put up a dollar for each dollar granted. So if the stop butt repair is going to cost $10k, the grant will be $5k and the club will have to put up the other $5k. And be able to show that they have it - or equivalent in kind. It is not really a free handout - more like a hand up.

Do you not have this sort of thing in the US?

 

[GeoffR]

Bindi2,
Would you be willing to start a new thread to educate us with the Objective information and data that has formed your opinions you are basing all of these types of statements on?

I for one think it would be very helpful to many and much more constructive and helpful while us on this side of the world / water catch up.

If your goal is to help the overall process you will have info that is valuable and helpful to many of us.

Please....

Thank You,
George

George. Do you really want to hear what we have to say, based on our experiences, or are you simply being condescending here?

Also, I have no idea who Bindi2 is. He has no involvement in Ozscore and nor does anyone else. Ozscore is really just me. Bindi2 speaks for himself and there is no collusion between him (I presme he's a bloke!) and any other ET manufacturer as far as I know.

Geoff.

 

[spclark]

Do you not have this sort of thing in the US?

Hardly.

Best we can lay claim to is our US NRA program funded by benefit events sponsored by states’ Friends of the NRA.

There’s no tax money I’ve ever heard of on the Federal level being spent the last 50 years on shooting sports.

State by State may be different. Where I am in Wisconsin I’ve heard many counties maintain some kind of shooting range for public use.

Having lived here only five years my familiarity with what might be out there has been nill. When I moved here from Illinois a major draw was the clubs I knew of that host regular events like Winnequah Gun Club near Lodi, WI.

 

[Bindi2]

Businesses don’t stay in business long losing money. So if there is an import tax they simply up the cost of those goods to the Aussie to cover the tax. As noted earlier, nothing’s free and you are paying for it.

Raw product from mining like Iron ore ,coal

 

[MattPeetz]

Raw product from mining like Iron ore ,coal

Iron Ore is not free. There is a cost of getting it out of the ground and that in turn is passed onto the consumer
Nothing, Nothing is free

 

[sdean]

I think you misunderstand.

Here in Australia most if not all states provide a system of funding grants to all sorts of organisations for all sorts of purposes. Not just rifle clubs wanting to purchase ET's. It could be the local tennis club looking for assistance to purchase new nets, or paint to fix up the clubhouse. I think it is simply part of what society here expects - and elsewhere I suppose. Taxpayer money get used for all sorts of things - making roads, building bridges, and helping sporting and other community organisations to function.

Loss of sporting clubs and other like organisations would be considered detrimental to society overall. Governments of both main flavours hold to this view be they "left" or "right" leaning. (I'm not sure we really have any "left" leaning governments here these days).

Organisations have to apply for grant funding. Most are unsuccessful. If you wanted to upgrade your club's bar you may well dip out. Furthermore, most if not all grants these days require the beneficiary to put up a dollar for each dollar granted. So if the stop butt repair is going to cost $10k, the grant will be $5k and the club will have to put up the other $5k. And be able to show that they have it - or equivalent in kind. It is not really a free handout - more like a hand up.

Do you not have this sort of thing in the US?

Hey Geoff. No real government assistance here. Most clubs are self funded and rely heavily on volunteer work. We hold some matches at our National Guard facilities. If that branch of the military even considered changing to Etargets then that would be military funding. These places for the most part are not open to the public.
This same discussion comes up a few times a year. I enjoy and respect your knowledge in this field. It is mostly just a matter of economics that dictates the target choices here. I am about finished with these discussions for this round.
So just to make things interesting here are my predictions for the next 5 years
If the ShotMarker target passes whatever the NRA requires then
There will be 5000 or more open target sold in the next 5 years
A light and portable closed target up to your standards will be produced for $2500.
And then 5000 of those will be sold.
Our large premier ranges will continue to pull targets.
Time will tell.
If the Chinese decide to make Etargets all bets are off.
I wish good health and a good year for you and your family. Stephen

 

[GeoffR]

Hey Geoff. No real government assistance here. Most clubs are self funded and rely heavily on volunteer work. We hold some matches at our National Guard facilities. If that branch of the military even considered changing to Etargets then that would be military funding. These places for the most part are not open to the public.
This same discussion comes up a few times a year. I enjoy and respect your knowledge in this field. It is mostly just a matter of economics that dictates the target choices here. I am about finished with these discussions for this round.
So just to make things interesting here are my predictions for the next 5 years
If the ShotMarker target passes whatever the NRA requires then
There will be 5000 or more open target sold in the next 5 years
A light and portable closed target up to your standards will be produced for $2500.
And then 5000 of those will be sold.
Our large premier ranges will continue to pull targets.
Time will tell.
If the Chinese decide to make Etargets all bets are off.
I wish good health and a good year for you and your family. Stephen

Thanks Stephen.

For what it is worth I think your predictions will prove correct. A system like mine for around US$2500 (AUD $3500) per firing lane/point is I think doable now. But not by me - I simply don't have the resources to push into the USA or anywhere else. But someone else could.

I think the key is in reducing the cost of the targets themselves, and acceptance of custom or purpose built mound technology that actually doesn't seem to be all that much more than a high end iPad or iPhone. Furthermore, I think there will eventually be a place for the more esoteric features not normally considered by shooters, such as spectator capability across the internet, automatic scoring (for whatever discipline is being shot).

Like you, I am also pretty much at the end of my involvement in this round of what seems to be a recurring topic. It's really like a hiding to Hell!

Geoff.

 

[Medic505]

Don't stop now. A couple more novellas on your part, this could easily make 25 pages.

 

[Rick Ratzlaff]

Hi Rick, Hope all is well.

Is pricing now on the website for all to see?

If I didn't know you, George, my feeling would really be hurt at your incessant poking. I apologize to all, for chipping in on something so far off topic, but after enough subjective poking even groundhogs retort. This issue will come up in another forum. You have my word. This isn't my first rodeo George.

You've been given very good advice from down under. They have been at E-Targets far longer and bigger than any in NA. Read between the print and you'll find some wisdom or as I put it "road rash".

We don't talk "PRICE". I'm sure you understand the GPS system and would agree precision of your dash GPS or your E-Target is totally contingent on data points or coordinates. Right? I'm asking.

If so then let's talk value... ALL other systems outside of HEXTA run 4 independent sensors per plane, to determine the Point of Impact.

So $800 = 4 sensors = 4 coordinates (at best, when all tell the truth). So, $800/4= $200 per coordinate. Is that fair? Yes! I'm glad you agree.

So if you take $200 per data point or coordinate X 56, (for the HEXTA Match Grade target) you get.... well a lot more than the value of our target. I'll bet your calculator melted.

To be clear for you all. Sensors are not light beams. They don't always hear in the same perpendicular plane. They are ALL subject to error on EVERY shot. The only unknown is how much error, this time?

Do your self, and more important your clubs favor and download the document below. It will be educational and objective, I might add.

https://goballistic.us/download/2874/

But again this discussion is long overdue, and should not be on this thread. But you poked. BTW I'm heading your way immediately. I'd stop by and let you shoot our target full of holes with an invite. (if I'm close enough)

Additionally, there are comments on this thread about imputing bullet diameter being part of the equation determining score or precision. Let me clarify this.

This is all Smoke and Mirrors, or Slight of Hand if you will. Makes some of you feel really good in a false sense of security.

Let's walk through the logic.

Calculate .308 - .223. You get .085 That's the diameter. So you must divide that in half to get the radius. Now your down to .0425.

There is NOT a sensor in the E-Target world that can even COME CLOSE to that kind of precision. But, if it feels good, do it. But again download the document from the link above. It will be enlightening. And there are many more on that web site.

 

[RDA72927]

If I didn't know you, George, my feeling would really be hurt at your incessant poking. I apologize to all, for chipping in on something so far off topic, but after enough subjective poking even groundhogs retort. This issue will come up in another forum. You have my word. This isn't my first rodeo George.

You've been given very good advice from down under. They have been at E-Targets far longer and bigger than any in NA. Read between the print and you'll find some wisdom or as I put it "road rash".

We don't talk "PRICE". I'm sure you understand the GPS system and would agree precision of your dash GPS or your E-Target is totally contingent on data points or coordinates. Right? I'm asking.

If so then let's talk value... ALL other systems outside of HEXTA run 4 independent sensors per plane, to determine the Point of Impact.

So $800 = 4 sensors = 4 coordinates (at best, when all tell the truth). So, $800/4= $200 per coordinate. Is that fair? Yes! I'm glad you agree.

So if you take $200 per data point or coordinate X 56, (for the HEXTA Match Grade target) you get.... well a lot more than the value of our target. I'll bet your calculator melted.

To be clear for you all. Sensors are not light beams. They don't always hear in the same perpendicular plane. They are ALL subject to error on EVERY shot. The only unknown is how much error, this time?

Do your self, and more important your clubs favor and download the document below. It will be educational and objective, I might add.

https://goballistic.us/download/2874/

But again this discussion is long overdue, and should not be on this thread. But you poked. BTW I'm heading your way immediately. I'd stop by and let you shoot our target full of holes with an invite. (if I'm close enough)

Additionally, there are comments on this thread about imputing bullet diameter being part of the equation determining score or precision. Let me clarify this.

This is all Smoke and Mirrors, or Slight of Hand if you will. Makes some of you feel really good in a false sense of security.

Let's walk through the logic.

Calculate .308 - .223. You get .085 That's the diameter. So you must divide that in half to get the radius. Now your down to .0425.

There is NOT a sensor in the E-Target world that can even COME CLOSE to that kind of precision. But, if it feels good, do it. But again download the document from the link above. It will be enlightening. And there are many more on that web site.

Man, you sound like a politician! Just answer the question? What does it cost? If you can't or will not, stop poking in with comments. Is it a trade secret as to cost? What's the deal? The question of cost has been asked several times and you refuse to answer..

Robert

 

[B Nettesheim]

This horse has been beaten into its grave!!! This may be the start of page 24 though

 

[adamjmac]

Rick, open sensor systems have 8 sensors, not 4, just like yours. There are 7 degrees of freedom, just like yours. There are not 56.

edit... 8 sensors, 8 degrees of freedom. The first sensor always reports zero time but it's still valuable.

 

[MattPeetz]

If I didn't know you, George, my feeling would really be hurt at your incessant poking. I apologize to all, for chipping in on something so far off topic, but after enough subjective poking even groundhogs retort. This issue will come up in another forum. You have my word. This isn't my first rodeo George.

You've been given very good advice from down under. They have been at E-Targets far longer and bigger than any in NA. Read between the print and you'll find some wisdom or as I put it "road rash".

We don't talk "PRICE". I'm sure you understand the GPS system and would agree precision of your dash GPS or your E-Target is totally contingent on data points or coordinates. Right? I'm asking.

If so then let's talk value... ALL other systems outside of HEXTA run 4 independent sensors per plane, to determine the Point of Impact.

So $800 = 4 sensors = 4 coordinates (at best, when all tell the truth). So, $800/4= $200 per coordinate. Is that fair? Yes! I'm glad you agree.

So if you take $200 per data point or coordinate X 56, (for the HEXTA Match Grade target) you get.... well a lot more than the value of our target. I'll bet your calculator melted.

To be clear for you all. Sensors are not light beams. They don't always hear in the same perpendicular plane. They are ALL subject to error on EVERY shot. The only unknown is how much error, this time?

Do your self, and more important your clubs favor and download the document below. It will be educational and objective, I might add.

https://goballistic.us/download/2874/

But again this discussion is long overdue, and should not be on this thread. But you poked. BTW I'm heading your way immediately. I'd stop by and let you shoot our target full of holes with an invite. (if I'm close enough)

Additionally, there are comments on this thread about imputing bullet diameter being part of the equation determining score or precision. Let me clarify this.

This is all Smoke and Mirrors, or Slight of Hand if you will. Makes some of you feel really good in a false sense of security.

Let's walk through the logic.

Calculate .308 - .223. You get .085 That's the diameter. So you must divide that in half to get the radius. Now your down to .0425.

There is NOT a sensor in the E-Target world that can even COME CLOSE to that kind of precision. But, if it feels good, do it. But again download the document from the link above. It will be enlightening. And there are many more on that web site.

Again, more bashing from you and STILL can’t answer the most simplest question.
You sir need to hire a salesman because you suck at it.

 

[GSS]

ahh, sigh,,,

I was hoping to see good news from Rick / Hex that now that his product is made in the USA with (likely) greatly reduced shipping costs even as heavy as they are. ( I believe around 120 lbs each ) that their pricing is now customer friendly enough to post... Guess not.

I had also asked
Has this list of US Ranges using Hexta grown at all since the site was created?
https://goballistic.us/range-users/

Maybe if there are more system in use around the US more people will get to see your system 1st hand.
but he chose to ignore that question


Competition / choices for customers typically drive down prices and improves quality and functionality as well but time will tell what vendor/s get the lions share of the growing market here in the US.

Obviously some are selling very well..
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/th...stems-sold-in-1st-year.3976569/#post-37473467

 

[Dgd6mm]

I need more pages.....

 

[GeoffR]

Rick, open sensor systems have 8 sensors, not 4, just like yours. There are 7 degrees of freedom, just like yours. There are not 56.

As I understand it your particular open sensor system utilises two 4-sensor planes, totalling 8 sensors. Is this correct? This is not quite the same as a single plane 8-sensor system.

The 8-sensor single plane HEXTA target has 56 isochrone intersections available to it for the mathematics to work on. A 4-sensor system has 12 usable isochrones. 12 is sufficient: 56 arguably more than sufficient. Assuming that multilateration (or trilateration) methods are used. Isochrones are essentially hyperbolas and multilateration exploits a particular property of hyperbolas, not requiring any terminal velocity in order to derive a shockwave angle - in fact no angles are required at all - only distance (read as time).

As I understand it you do not employ multilateration or trilateration - is this correct? Everyone else does - except perhaps SMT.

Multilateration provides some interesting byproducts that are good for engineering purposes.

The mathematical method used has nothing to do with whether or not the target is open or closed. Nor does it have any impact on price. It is simply an approach to solving a particular problem. Multilateration is without doubt a superior method to say a trigonometric approach for numerous reasons, and is effectively cost neutral.

I don't really understand what you are referring to as "degrees of freedom". With a purely time based method such as multilateration we talk in terms of isochrones - not degrees of freedom (whatever they are).

There are numerous papers on this subject.

We have been here before. I'm sort of getting tired of it.

 

[adamjmac]

You have 8 sensors, but you only need 3. There are 56 unique combinations of 3 from 8. so you run the 3-input equation 56 times and take the average. A fair strategy for dealing with an over-defined problem. I do something similar. But these 56 values are not independent. Most of them are dependent on each other. You can't get something from nothing, you still only have 8 unique numbers to start with.

Here's an analogy. Flip a coin, and it comes up heads. That's one measurement. The other side is tails. Measuring the other side provides no value. It's determined by the first. Two sided coin, one degree of freedom.

If you have two coins, then you have two degrees of freedom, requiring two measurements. Not four. And so on.

There's no question that closed targets can be more accurate then open. But it's certainly not because 56 is bigger than 12, 8, or 4. It's because closed targets do not have to deal with physical movement. Which can be handled through frame construction and stability. The precision of the internal calculations is not important.

 

[corning]

If I didn't know you, George, my feeling would really be hurt at your incessant poking. I apologize to all, for chipping in on something so far off topic, but after enough subjective poking even groundhogs retort. This issue will come up in another forum. You have my word. This isn't my first rodeo George.

You've been given very good advice from down under. They have been at E-Targets far longer and bigger than any in NA. Read between the print and you'll find some wisdom or as I put it "road rash".

We don't talk "PRICE". I'm sure you understand the GPS system and would agree precision of your dash GPS or your E-Target is totally contingent on data points or coordinates. Right? I'm asking.

If so then let's talk value... ALL other systems outside of HEXTA run 4 independent sensors per plane, to determine the Point of Impact.

So $800 = 4 sensors = 4 coordinates (at best, when all tell the truth). So, $800/4= $200 per coordinate. Is that fair? Yes! I'm glad you agree.

So if you take $200 per data point or coordinate X 56, (for the HEXTA Match Grade target) you get.... well a lot more than the value of our target. I'll bet your calculator melted.

To be clear for you all. Sensors are not light beams. They don't always hear in the same perpendicular plane. They are ALL subject to error on EVERY shot. The only unknown is how much error, this time?

Do your self, and more important your clubs favor and download the document below. It will be educational and objective, I might add.

https://goballistic.us/download/2874/

But again this discussion is long overdue, and should not be on this thread. But you poked. BTW I'm heading your way immediately. I'd stop by and let you shoot our target full of holes with an invite. (if I'm close enough)

Additionally, there are comments on this thread about imputing bullet diameter being part of the equation determining score or precision. Let me clarify this.

This is all Smoke and Mirrors, or Slight of Hand if you will. Makes some of you feel really good in a false sense of security.

Let's walk through the logic.

Calculate .308 - .223. You get .085 That's the diameter. So you must divide that in half to get the radius. Now your down to .0425.

There is NOT a sensor in the E-Target world that can even COME CLOSE to that kind of precision. But, if it feels good, do it. But again download the document from the link above. It will be enlightening. And there are many more on that web site.

Rick, That was a lot of words without saying anything definitive. It's time for the "proverbial do something, or get off the pot". How much does a Hexta target cost? Other than the 3 US ranges where, according to your web site, the targets are used, are you really interested in marketing those things, or just making noise?

John Corning