E-Target Bashing

[coldboreshot]

At this point in time, Electronic targets ,perhaps specific brands, have not reached the pinnacle of their employment where they should used in major matches. Period!

Now I try to get out as much as can to participate (given my schedule) but if there is any major match where electronic targets have proven their worthiness, by all means, enlighten me. But as it stands, I have not read or heard of any such major match.

Do any other disciplines such as benchrest utilize electronic targets??? I would be very interested to hear about it. If not, there might be a very good reason why. Perhaps they know something we don't ???

 

[!Peter!]

Do any other disciplines such as benchrest utilize electronic targets??? I would be very interested to hear about it. If not, there might be a very good reason why. Perhaps they know something we don't ???

ISSF disciplines which are shot at Olympics have been using electronic targets for many years. Infact ISSF requires electronic targets to be used in international events. Main brand in use is Sius. Meyton and Megalink are other established brands.

ytube search for ISSF will find videos of these targets in use in international competitions.

 

[FishNM]

ISSF disciplines which are shot at Olympics have been using electronic targets for many years. Infact ISSF requires electronic targets to be used in international events. Main brand in use is Sius. Meyton and Megalink are other established brands.

ytube search for ISSF will find videos of these targets in use in international competitions.

https://www.issf-sports.org/news.ashx?newsid=1892

 

[Ned Ludd]

E-targets: the perfect solution to a problem that didn't exist.

 

[BronzeArcher]

E-targets: the perfect solution to a problem that didn't exist.

It's a matter of perspective, I suppose. As friends and I endeavor to grow the various disciplines in which we participate, we notice lots of shooters are more apt to stick with new disciplines based on a few factors:

1. Not too hot in the summer and not too wet when it rains. A covered firing line and absence of pit duty are a big bonus to lots of shooters new to F-Class. Compare the 2018 F-Class numbers at Talladega CMP (markedly increased over 2017) with those of River Bend Gun Club (markedly decreased over 2017). It's also nice to have a greater degree of confidence when travelling that an event is unlikely to be cancelled for a little rain. Traveled some distance several times with friends over the past few years just to have events cancelled due to rain - something about not wanting the target backers to get wet.

2. Shorter days for the same number of shots. 3-4 relays is standard for matches with pit duty. Most days stretch to 3-4 PM for 60 shots for record in F-Class. 6-8 hours is a long time for 60 record shots. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's hard to compete with electronic events, many of which offer the same number of record shots in the same events in 3-4 hours (or less). Newcomers tend to return to events and venues with more shooting in less time.

3. Results posted quickly. Been to a few paper matches where it took days or weeks for new shooters to get the results bulletin and see how they did compared with the other shooters. Most electronic scoring systems have their results posted very quickly.

4. Other range amenities. Ranges with electronic scoring systems also tend to have electricity, wireless, better bathrooms, and (sometimes) AC and heat. Having been to lots of ranges with lots of people, the amenities at places like Talladega and Dead Zero Shooting Park lend themselves to an overall much more positive experience for newcomers than places like Palo Alto, AEDC, and River Bend.

If they can get the bugs out of the targets and apply a set of rules that truly gives shooters the benefit of the doubt for the occasional failure, I can see e targets being very popular.

Why spend 2 days for a 100 round for record tournament when it can be done in 1 with electronic targets?

Why spend hours baking in the pits pulling targets when for the same drive in a different direction, you don't need to?

Why make the drive when a 50% chance of rain could scrub the match in one direction, but you know the show will go on in the other direction?

 

[Mozella]

snip....................... it's hard to compete with electronic events, many of which offer the same number of record shots in the same events in 3-4 hours (or less). .......... snip..........

You're correct. Lack of wasted time is as important to me as not having to do pit duty.

Our local club matches are hard fought while still being relatively low key. We usually shoot in pairs using modified infiltrated squadding on e-Targets. The line stays hot and as soon as your partner finishes his string, you reset the target and shoot your string, and so-on. Under normal conditions it almost never takes more than an hour and half for both shooters to finish three 20-shot strings from the time we flop down for the first shot until we're packing up our gear. If you weren't interesting in swapping war stories, you could be in and out in less than two hours including the safety briefing and registration.

Of course, if the winds are tricky or a shooter needs to quickly repair a malfunction of some sort, the full time limit is available for him timed by his shooting partner and monitored by the Match Director. It works well and gets us home much earlier than the standard target routine with all strings taking the full time limit along with lengthy pit changes.

You probably wouldn't use this routine for big-time matches, but it works very well for club level competitions.

 

[Bindi2]

Need electronic moving backer, servo controlled, a foot or so behind primary.
Before/after backer software reset you can confirm all shots (what happened), and see shots from other benches as clear path deviations.

This is a very good idea as I have used paper backers in pistol shooting to determine missing shots / two through the same hole. This would be V G for crossfires.

 

[Bindi2]

The only BUGS in ETS are the human type. They are being used for major competition around the world and have been for a long time.

 

[Stephen H]

I shoot groups mostly 5 and 10 shots and they are within 3/16" of measurements at 1k always.

That is not accurate enough for Benchrest use

 

[Rick Ratzlaff]

Not to mention, you are usually squadded with your competition. Does that make sense that your competitor is scoring you and you have no way to verify anything. I wouldnt want to be accused of shorting my competitor or believe that my competitor shorted me but it is the world we live in and it is possible it has happened. We just be honest sportsmen and women and do the right thing.

That's good point. In comparing manual score cards with the E-Target report you'll always find human math errors at matches.

 

[Bindi2]

That is not accurate enough for Benchrest use

These targets are for score not benchrest. Downloaded data and plot sheets show accuracy to less than 1mm at 900m which is acceptable for score. Then consider the target does its calculation for 8mm bullets so all shooters are being given an advantage using 30 cal and smaller.

 

[JohnKielly]

Then consider the target does its calculation for 8mm bullets so all shooters are being given an advantage using 30 cal and smaller.

All countries except the US have used a .30 calibre plug to adjudicate on shots on paper targets in perpetuity, so not much has changed there. However, I've never checked with Hexta to see whether they use a .308 template for TR & a .323 for F class. Maybe they do.

 

[Jimmy James]

Working the pits is well...the pits. Scrambling to the pits from parking behind the 1000yd line is the pits. Getting spindles shot out onto or into your vehicle in the pits is the pits. What can possibly go wrong with your buddy scoring for you on the line? Lots of group BR matches/clubs have gone to score shooting because of missing shots in group. Went to local university indoor rimfire rifle match. E targets with paper rolls as back up and verification.

 

[Jacob.A]

I would opine that it is about impossible to screw up paper. On the other side, I have had more computer crashes than I care to recount.

Paper isn't perfect, entirely because you're relying on humans to use it correctly. I've had poor pit service (20+ seconds in the pit), incorrectly scored marks, missed shots where I have to call for a mark 3+ times, missed scores where I've fired and received scores for 20 shots but the scorer only wrote down 18 of them, and more. I've run stats for matches where there were three separate scorers who noted issues and didn't notify the shooter until after the string was complete (where they could have easily fired another round). Electronic targets aren't perfect, but they eliminate so many human errors that I'm completely willing to accept it over ever having to deal with pit service again (and I don't mind working the pits at all, it's other people's pit service that I dread).

 

[XTR]

@Jacob.A your experience is the exact opposite of mine. As noted in another thread here, in the last 7 1/2 shooting seasons I've competed on 19 ranges in the US and Canada, from Phoenix to New Brunswick. From 2011 to 2015 I averaged at 11 matches per yr, most of those 2 day or more matches. In that time I have fired hundreds of relays.

I have on occasion had to call for a mark, in particular on ranges with out an impact berm, and I have probably challenged less than 5 scores as marked. I have never had a shot lost during an F class match (I have cross fired). I have never had all the targets on the line break down and fail to be pulled.

I have shot on two different e target systems, on two different ranges. I've got 7 days of shooting on e-targets. Only once can I remember a day that there was not at least one comms error between the line and targets. Both times I shot on open mic targets there were ghost shots that appeared on my target through out the match, and 2 out of 5 times on closed systems someone on my target had shots that did not report locations.

If we are going to shoot on e-targets they need to be as reliable as paper and pasters. So here is my hypothetical question.

If today all 17 of the ranges that I have fired on that used paper targets replaced their manual targets with e-targets and over the next few yrs I fired another few hundred relays on them. Would they match the record of reliability, accuracy and precision of the paper targets? Keep in mind that right now the two systems I have fired on have had more failures in 7 days of shooting than all the paper targets combined in the last 7 yrs.

 

[FishNM]

I have my own E target and have never had a single issue with it at all. Once you become familiar with how to use one, they are a breeze and more fun.

 

[XTR]

@FishNM I'm going to purchase one of the Shot Marker systems for myself. I think ETs are awesome for load development.

 

[ngb1787]

I have my own E target and have never had a single issue with it at all. Once you become familiar with how to use one, they are a breeze and more fun.

Any on fire fishing spots in NM currently?

 

[Ned Ludd]

@Jacob.A your experience is the exact opposite of mine. As noted in another thread here, in the last 7 1/2 shooting seasons I've competed on 19 ranges in the US and Canada, from Phoenix to New Brunswick. From 2011 to 2015 I averaged at 11 matches per yr, most of those 2 day or more matches. In that time I have fired hundreds of relays.

I have on occasion had to call for a mark, in particular on ranges with out an impact berm, and I have probably challenged less than 5 scores as marked. I have never had a shot lost during an F class match (I have cross fired). I have never had all the targets on the line break down and fail to be pulled.

I have shot on two different e target systems, on two different ranges. I've got 7 days of shooting on e-targets. Only once can I remember a day that there was not at least one comms error between the line and targets. Both times I shot on open mic targets there were ghost shots that appeared on my target through out the match, and 2 out of 5 times on closed systems someone on my target had shots that did not report locations.

If we are going to shoot on e-targets they need to be as reliable as paper and pasters. So here is my hypothetical question.

If today all 17 of the ranges that I have fired on that used paper targets replaced their manual targets with e-targets and over the next few yrs I fired another few hundred relays on them. Would they match the record of reliability, accuracy and precision of the paper targets? Keep in mind that right now the two systems I have fired on have had more failures in 7 days of shooting than all the paper targets combined in the last 7 yrs.

Wade's post is worth a second look. It's funny how often the E-target fanboys will say "I'm willing to put up with a few of the idiosyncrasies of E-targets" in order to gain whatever they might happen to think are the advantages over paper targets. I'm willing to bet that for most, that opinion would start to change the second they personally experienced a target not recording their score, especially if it changed the outcome of the match.

 

[Jacob.A]

@XTR I'm not sure how you haven't had issues with human pullers. I've only shot prone matches, but I've helped with a good number of XTC matches as well, and the worst are the EIC matches since it tends to draw a different crowd.

I stand by my statement that E targets are more reliable than human pullers, and worst case if the system goes down we just swap frames back and shoot it the old way - takes maybe 30 minutes to do so, and the electronics let us shoot so fast (by cutting out pit changes) that we've run a full XTC match in two hours. Rule 10.17.8 (b) should perhaps be clearer in favoring the shooter, but I think match officials and competitors fully understanding the rule would alleviate almost all complaints - you just have to examine adjacent targets and ensure that no crossfire took place and the missing shot is ignored (not scored as a miss). The vast majority of cases where a shot isn't logged can be easily resolved in the shooter's favor if the rule is followed, and complaints about the targets or rules can't really be taken seriously when the rules aren't actually being followed.