E-Target Bashing

[One Shot One Thrill]

Here's you thread Bash away but first.
I have operated a range since the 90's
With both pits and e-targets we have 14 lanes and 10 lanes with e-targets. Both have their own issues and almost always human error one way or another is at the core.
I believe when using target pullers some shooters have way too much advantage. 1 example.I've seen shooters bring their own non shooting paid puller and never go to the pits staying back to continuously monitor conditions not to mention the close line shots. I've seen shooters that came together leave not talking to each other over an 9 or 8 they could not of shot because all previous shots were in the 10 ring.
I have scored Benchrest Targets for years and I can tell you that too many times we can only find 4 out of 5 and 9 out of 10 shots. We are looking at the paper with a scoring ring and a magnifying glass. All kinds of things can happen from the firing ling to the target be it 600 or 1k.
I upgraded the e-targets early this year and have been testing them. They are working great but I'm not ready to hold matches until I can follow the rules as written. I have tested them under all kinds of conditions. I shoot groups mostly 5 and 10 shots and they are within 3/16" of measurements at 1k always.
It requires a great investment when attempting to provide a great place to shoot. We as shooters need to do our best to support those making the effort. Lets work together to grow our sport with honest positive feed back. I'm sure that's what the match directors are hoping for be it pulled or e-targets.

 

[Jennb]

I appreciate all the effort!

 

[ShootDots]

I believe that E-Targets are on the cusp of making the targets good enough where everyone will be satisfied with their accuracy and performance. I don't think they are quite there yet>>>but close. A good friend of mine, he is JohnnyI on here, states that at Bayou Rifles they have acquired very good E-Targets. I can't remember the name of them>>>Maybe Johnny will see this thread and chime in for us. He believes that they are as good, over the course of a 3 match day, as human pullers! I am NOT sold on the Silver Mountain ones, however, listening to him, the ones they are invested in are excellent! The timing from shot to shot needs attention and misses / blow-ups need to be worked out, however, once these matters are fixed, they may very well be a viable way to go!

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

I would opine that it is about impossible to screw up paper. On the other side, I have had more computer crashes than I care to recount.

One Shot,

that issue is easy. Just post it that shooters go from shooting on their relay to the pits and pull targets. Don't pull targets unless you want yours scored your next relay.

 

[Mozella]

........ snip.............. Lets work together to grow our sport with honest positive feed back. I'm sure that's what the match directors are hoping for be it pulled or e-targets.

I would say giving honest feed back is a worthwhile goal, but it won't always be positive in spite of how much match directors might wish it to be. Honesty is the best you can hope for at this stage of e-target development.

I understand that human nature can cause a person who has made a significant investment to claim that his equipment is good. The owner might very well say, "It must be good since it's so expensive" and that goes for someone spending a thousand bucks on his personal e-target or a big range like the CMP range at Talladega where they spent millions of dollars on the targets alone.

In truth, one's experience with e-targets isn't always positive. I went to a match at Talladega where every single one of the 30 or so targets in use malfunctioned to the point where they cancelled the entire match. But not before spending several hours berating the experienced shooters by trying to claim we all were such lousy shots that we couldn't get on paper at 600 yards Plenty of competitors won't soon forget that hot steaming mess. It's hard to give positive feed back about that event.

But I will say that most of my experiences with e-targets have indeed been positive and when it is, I try to give positive reviews if they are deserved. On the other hand, when e-targets malfunction, especially at this stage of development, it's important to give feed back which might not be positive. That's the only way e-targets will improve to the point where we can stop talking about malfunctions. I believe that day is coming.

I'm a fan of e-targets and I am certain they are the wave of the future. I also appreciate those who own or operate ranges, especially the club level volunteers who come out every month for a day or two to organize and run a match. I also appreciate those who are willing to invest in e-target system. These guys and gals are the real gems of our sport and I always thank them before I head for home. Without these dedicated men and women our sport would really suffer.

 

[Bindi2]

The thing about ETs is you know nothing about them until you buy into the system you still know nothing but will carry on as if you do know, you wont listen to those who do know, you will make the same mistakes they did but you will learn the hard way all the way. The Beta testing is not on the targets it is the operators who are being tested. All the mistakes that you in the USA are finding are not new do have solutions and are human error not system error.

 

[BronzeArcher]

My peeps and I have never missed a paper target in a course of fire in dozens of F-class matches (maybe hundreds). The 6 foot square target is huge and very hard to miss at 600 yards once sighters are done. In less than 10 events on e targets, three matches have been ruined by shots being scored as misses, one multiple times. Sure, on paper, human error by the puller might drop a point or two here or there. But I've never known it to create zeros on the score card in F-Class.

My view is it's more the silly NRA rule than the e target reliability itself. The benefit of the doubt needs to go to the shooter, and right now, the rule is that unless a second consecutive shot is also missed by the e target, the remaining doubt goes against the shooter.

Sure, once in a while, bullets really miss the whole target. Bullets blowing up in flight are the most common reason for experienced F-Class shooters on 6 foot square targets. But this is a relatively rare occurrence compared with the number of shots e targets seem to miss. Gotta tweak the rules to give shooters the benefit of the doubt.

 

[500Stroker]

Big Piney Sportsmens Club has had E-targets for over a year and have performed well during matches.
Myself, I prefer E - targets over pit ranges.

 

[One Shot One Thrill]

I would say giving honest feed back is a worthwhile goal, but it won't always be positive in spite of how much match directors might wish it to be. Honesty is the best you can hope for at this stage of e-target development.

I understand that human nature can cause a person who has made a significant investment to claim that his equipment is good. The owner might very well say, "It must be good since it's so expensive" and that goes for someone spending a thousand bucks on his personal e-target or a big range like the CMP range at Talladega where they spent millions of dollars on the targets alone.

In truth, one's experience with e-targets isn't always positive. I went to a match at Talladega where every single one of the 30 or so targets in use malfunctioned to the point where they cancelled the entire match. But not before spending several hours berating the experienced shooters by trying to claim we all were such lousy shots that we couldn't get on paper at 600 yards Plenty of competitors won't soon forget that hot steaming mess. It's hard to give positive feed back about that event.

But I will say that most of my experiences with e-targets have indeed been positive and when it is, I try to give positive reviews if they are deserved. On the other hand, when e-targets malfunction, especially at this stage of development, it's important to give feed back which might not be positive. That's the only way e-targets will improve to the point where we can stop talking about malfunctions. I believe that day is coming.

I'm a fan of e-targets and I am certain they are the wave of the future. I also appreciate those who own or operate ranges, especially the club level volunteers who come out every month for a day or two to organize and run a match. I also appreciate those who are willing to invest in e-target system. These guys and gals are the real gems of our sport and I always thank them before I head for home. Without these dedicated men and women our sport would really suffer.

I agree.
Anything created or run by humans will fail at one point or another.

The thing about ETs is you know nothing about them until you buy into the system you still know nothing but will carry on as if you do know, you wont listen to those who do know, you will make the same mistakes they did but you will learn the hard way all the way. The Beta testing is not on the targets it is the operators who are being tested. All the mistakes that you in the USA are finding are not new do have solutions and are human error not system error.

I agree that it is human error as all systems were designed and produced by humans. To imply that systems are incapable of failure is not the answer. I believe some of the best systems in human creation have failed ask NASA. In order to move forward we need to recognize our shortcomings and improve.

 

[jkl]

Bindi2,
I agree as an owner of an electronic target for almost 3 years. I would agree the owner, Match Director or operator will cause 95% of the problems. There are 15 SMT targets, 1 server and now 2 new Solo owners at Ben Avery. I can say as a group the operators will cause more issues than anyone can believe. Over time it has gotten better as we all have learned the system and how to use it. If you think in a 5 minute class you are good to go you are not. Even if you think you have the system down someone shooting on your target will teach you how to reset something. I was helping a shooter Sunday set a tablet up on my target and while doing the setup he cried I need a 10 year old to do this. Age is a handicap sometimes. I have not played with a Solo yet but I am sure somebody will need help with it soon.

John

 

[FishNM]

Not to mention, you are usually squadded with your competition. Does that make sense that your competitor is scoring you and you have no way to verify anything. I wouldnt want to be accused of shorting my competitor or believe that my competitor shorted me but it is the world we live in and it is possible it has happened. We just be honest sportsmen and women and do the right thing.

 

[One Shot One Thrill]

The thing that is missing most is a way for competitors to challenge. Incorporate a camera system that can show you the last shot on-target and give a course of action for the shooter when a missed shot is indicated would be a great assistance in my opinion.

 

[big john 5394]

I shot my first e target last year at the orange blossom regional in florida and i loved it i used a old i pad and had no problems setting up and i am a grand senior, loved the fact you can exactly see where the bullet hits and you can make finer adjustments, also the only problem was a shooter bullets where blowing up and sum cross fires witch was corrected. i wish all ranges can go to e targets.
big john

 

[FishNM]

I shot my first e target last year at the orange blossom regional in florida and i loved it i used a old i pad and had no problems setting up and i am a grand senior, loved the fact you can exactly see where the bullet hits and you can make finer adjustments, also the only problem was a shooter bullets where blowing up and sum cross fires witch was corrected. i wish all ranges can go to e targets.
big john

Bullets blowing up would have same effect on paper...a "0". Thats a shooter issue not the target. Are the E targets getting blamed for that?

 

[One Shot One Thrill]

Bullets blowing up would have same effect on paper...a "0". Thats a shooter issue not the target. Are the E targets getting blamed for that?

Absolutely I agree and have witnessed that as well as someone shooting all 10's and x's shooting an 8. I have actually seen the bullet strike off target on the sensor pole. It is a long way from firing line to target many things can happen.
I do not know many that will readily accept this to be true without a challenge and then they still won't believe it but at least they had the opportunity.

 

[coldboreshot]

In my opinion...I believe as well, in time, with the advancement of the technology of the E target system regardless of what "Brand", it will become sufficient and acceptable for all. However, at this point, I believe these systems were put in place by ranges and venues wishing to incorporate the latest and greatest and got ahead of themselves. What I mean is... this technology here in the states has just relatively started roughly a year and half or so ago where the NRA was catching up to write and regulate rules and the systems' manufacturing were scurrying to manage updates for their systems. I just believe everyone began incorporating these systems before any proper assessment of performance could be established. And because of the downfalls everyone is experiencing with a system where bugs continue to be worked out, it is driving away the interest of those shooters who are subjected to participating at venues where these systems are currently being incorporated.

One other note...it was my impression that the E target systems were to designed to eventually replace the manual pulling and scoring aspect. I see changes in how matches (F class in particular) are being perpetually altered from its original and formal format. Or, maybe its something as simple as, when particular venues began utilizing this system in registered matches, the high power rules section on E targets should have been aggressively followed.

Who really knows whether or not that 6mm shot was actually a 10 or an X or that same shot was a 9 or a 10 if the system was based on a general 30 caliber reference across the firing line.

Many matches have been won or lost by Xs, let alone points.

And that concludes by bicentennial moment.

 

[Mozella]

Not to mention, you are usually squadded with your competition. Does that make sense that your competitor is scoring you and you have no way to verify anything. I wouldnt want to be accused of shorting my competitor or believe that my competitor shorted me but it is the world we live in and it is possible it has happened. We just be honest sportsmen and women and do the right thing.

I got into competitive shooting later in life after having competed in quite a few sports including glider racing, sailboat racing, RC Model competitions, automobile racing, etc. In EVERY venue, there was cheating..........sometimes lots of it even when no prize money was involved.

Therefore I was shocked when I learned how F-class matches are scored, usually by your competitor but just as often by your friend who might also be a competitor. Plus the kind of cheating you might try in F-class is just too easy. Surely it must be common, I thought......... incorrectly.

I'm very happy to say that cheating in our sport is essentially non existent as far as I can tell. I find that hard to believe given what passes for modern civilization, but it appears to be true.

The good news is that any score deviations whether by intent or by accident are much more easily noticed using electronic targets. You shoot the round, the e-target gives you a score, and after you do that 20 times, it adds your scores up for all to see. That capability alone is cause for increased peace of mind.

 

[FishNM]

I got into competitive shooting later in life after having competed in quite a few sports including glider racing, sailboat racing, RC Model competitions, automobile racing, etc. In EVERY venue, there was cheating..........sometimes lots of it even when no prize money was involved.

Therefore I was shocked when I learned how F-class matches are scored, usually by your competitor but just as often by your friend who might also be a competitor. Plus the kind of cheating you might try in F-class is just too easy. Surely it must be common, I thought......... incorrectly.

I'm very happy to say that cheating in our sport is essentially non existent as far as I can tell. I find that hard to believe given what passes for modern civilization, but it appears to be true.

The good news is that any score deviations whether by intent or by accident are much more easily noticed using electronic targets. You shoot the round, the e-target gives you a score, and after you do that 20 times, it adds your scores up for all to see. That capability alone is cause for increased peace of mind.

I wouldnt call it nonexistant. Maybe not intentional. A marker forgets to be moved on a close shot so shooter accepts the score, paster falls off the target leaving a hole and scorer marks that hole and then doesnt know what to do when actual hole is discovered. Many errors can happen but for the most part we are all sportsmen and women and would like to think we do the right thing. I would like to believe that integrity still exists!!

 

[rardoin]

I'm very happy to say that cheating in our sport is essentially non existent as far as I can tell. I find that hard to believe given what passes for modern civilization, but it appears to be true.

Hard to consider cheating when your competitors are all armed.

In motorsports cheating was taken to a fine art! This sport is a refreshing change for sure.

 

[mikecr]

Need electronic moving backer, servo controlled, a foot or so behind primary.
Before/after backer software reset you can confirm all shots (what happened), and see shots from other benches as clear path deviations.