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Does the bullet slide out of the neck or does the neck open to release it?

Strange, because after this thread started I actually measured the force required to seat a bullet into a case,
With a spring pressure gauge
The vertical force required was only 50 lbs - (actual force to push bullet into neck)
Would seem logical the force required to spit the bullet back out would also only be 50 lbs.
---Until it reached the rifling
---This was a 22BR case with light neck tension
I know other cases such as 300 WM have much more neck tension and seating force required could be
10x this.
But still does not come close to 2k-10k PSI
Remember, the force acting on the bottom of the bullet is PSI X [Area of the bottom of the bullet]
For a 30 cal bullet, that's .28. With 10K psi the force would be 280 lbs; at 1K psi it would be 28 lbs.
 
Remember, the force acting on the bottom of the bullet is PSI X [Area of the bottom of the bullet]
For a 30 cal bullet, that's .28. With 10K psi the force would be 280 lbs; at 1K psi it would be 28 lbs.
Well, I was pushing on the meplat of the bullet to seat it, took 50 lbs
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And if my Trig is correct...I believe .28 x 1000 = 280
---------------
And no offense but ummmm, psssst...... for a .308 bullet, the area is .0745
---------------
Remember, it's πR²
Not..........................πD²
 
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index.php
Repeat this test again only wait a week before pulling bullets.
 
People seem to want to box this in to an either or answer and it’s going to depend on a lot of variables. Cartridge size, bullet weight, chamber dimensions…….

Initial pressure is caused by the primer ignition and a 308 W with a 200 grain bullet and Varget is going to be a different answer than a 22 Hornet with a 35 grain bullet using 296. Since you can get 308 brass with a small rifle primer, both could be using the exact same primer.

I think looking for an absolute answer is a mistake.
 
This is where I'm at in my thinking now as well.
I dont think neck tension matters a whole lot.
I've seen equally great groups in neck tension ranging from ----
1. strips copper off the bullet to 2. almost seat bullets with your finger
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also - I'd say the bullet moves first,
---otherwise how would the outside of our necks get smoked with carbon unless the bullet first got out of the way, for gasses to escape the case and creep around the neck,
then as the bullet enters enough into the rifling to slow itself down does chamber pressure then build enough to balloon the case neck to tightly seal against the chamber.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How can gasses get around the neck, if the neck first expanded against the chamber before the bullet moves?
--------------------------
Now maybe it's Both / one or the other can happen, DEPENDING UPON your neck tension
and I'm more toward that theory
--------------------------
I use light neck tension and most of my case necks are lightly carbon smoked
However when I have used heavy neck tension with Lapua brass, I seem to notice little to no smoke on the necks
which leads me to believe in that instance..... that the neck holds the bullet until pressure builds enough to balloon the case and seal against the chamber while then releasing the bullet.
-------------------------
Everyone try this
Chamber a round with only a primer and no powder
See if your bullet leaves the case and sticks into the rifling
If so, then we know the primer going off alone spits the bullet out ;)


There are some credible test available to be watched on Youtube with statistics and colored charts that show NECK TENSION DOES MATTER .
 
There are some credible test available to be watched on Youtube with statistics and colored charts that show NECK TENSION DOES MATTER .
Your targets will tell you that. The most confusing thing to me has been these two different things have happened. Seats hard by feel but force number is normal. Seats easy but force number is high. Yes these are exceptions, but why?
 
There are some credible test available to be watched on Youtube with statistics and colored charts that show NECK TENSION DOES MATTER .
What I've found matters more and strive for more importantly is
CONSISTENT, neck tension
more so than playing with the amount the neck is sized down
-----
Why?
Because the neck is going to conform around the bullet no matter how much it is sized down
neck tension has more to do with the amount of brass thickness providing elasticity around the bullet
------------------
I will admit consistency being more important than the amount of tension is just my experience with the cartridges I shoot
Different powders or cartridge designs may benefit from sizing the neck down before bullet seating.
 

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What I've found matters more and strive for more importantly is
CONSISTENT, neck tension
more so than playing with the amount the neck is sized down
-----
Why?
Because the neck is going to conform around the bullet no matter how much it is sized down
neck tension has more to do with the amount of brass thickness providing elasticity around the bullet
------------------
I will admit consistency being more important than the amount of tension is just my experience with the cartridges I shoot
Different powders or cartridge designs may benefit from sizing the neck down before bullet seating.
Sounds like a job for a quantum computer. We may never know.
 
Sounds like a job for a quantum computer. We may never know.
Let me expand a little bit more on my theory of neck tension and brass
let us first say
We take a piece of brass flat bar and bend it at 45 degrees
Then we straighten it back out flat
Then anneal it
-----------------------------------------
I believe many people are under the impression of we give it a little extra back bend this will build in more memory tension
So now we bend it at -10 degrees and bend it back out to 45 degrees
-----------------------------------------
Bending it at -10 degrees first before then bending it to 45 degrees does not make the brass spring back to 35 degrees
It stays at whatever angle we bend it to
both pieces may have 2-3 degrees spring back after bending to 45.... sure.
But putting any back bend does not make it spring back more
-----------------------------------------
So I ran an experiment last night to try and proof my theory with some 22 BR brass
I neck sized 2 pieces of annealed brass, both with same neck thickness of .009"
1. was sized down to internal ID of .218"
2. was sized down to .221" ID
I then inserted a bullet into each one
-----------------------------------------
NOW - if peoples thoery is correct, the one that was sized down further should have some more built in spring back right? Or = More neck tension.
IF it is true that sizing the case down more builds in more neck tension, then when I pull the bullets out the one sized down to .218" should spring back further to less of an ID.
---more than the brass that was sized down to .221"
------------------------------------------
When I pulled each bullet and measured the ID of each case
They were both exactly the same .224
The case that was sized down smaller did not spring back further
------------------------------------------
Yes it may take more seating pressure to seat a bullet into the .218 neck sized case
because you are stretching the brass more
But once it is stretched, they are both stretched the same amount
------------------------------------------
I will however admit that if we do not anneal, sizing down more will work harden the brass enough to allow MORE spring back if sized down further and possibly apply more neck tension
Yet if we are annealing our brass so all cases are just as soft and stretchable
Once stretched....it does not matter if I sized the neck down to .100, then seat a bullet.
-----------------------------------------
This is with MY brass at MY neck thickness
Other brass with thicker necks may act differently
which is why I say,
"Tuning your neck tension is done with neck thickness, more so than the dia. it is sized down to."
Hope this makes sense
 
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You're getting there ELR VLR!!!
In Engineering the so call spring back is called STRESSES AND STRAIN!! Cartridge brass can be compressed 0.0005" and will recoil back that 0.0005" without being reformed or reshaped!!! On reshaping (reforming) the brass, the grains and boundaries of the grains under high stresses and strains!! Just like bending steel, over travel is required because the steel wants to bounce back because of the higher stresses and strains within it grain structure and boundaries!!! This is why die makers make dies 0.0005" in radius or 0.001 in diameter smaller than nominal specs for that cartridge!!!

Everybody seams to say "TENSION" all the time!!! But Newton's laws of Action/Reaction Forces States, if there is a tension force, there is another force acting on it, and opposing that tension force! The brass neck is undergoing tension, inward force towards the center of the neck, but the bullet is pushing back, outwards from its center, against that tension!! That force of the bullet pushing outward is called COMPRESSION!!! Yes, for the bullet to stay fixed in the neck and not move, or called STATIC, then the tension force is equal to the compression force!!! The magnitude of these forces are described in Engineering Terms as CLASS FIT with bullet/neck fit called Class Interference Fit!!!
 
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