Do you believe Hornady

[chkunz]

If you search the "Bulletin" tap on this form you can find the technical paper by Dave Emery of Hornady on this subject and it has some good technical information. Some of the magazine articles on this subject are not as good and some are somewhat misleading. If you have a serious interest in this subject it would be worth your time to read the article by Emery.

 

[swd]

Below is a Hornady tech's reply to my email to them asking about the 105-AMax:

"The 105 A-Max will not be made using the new Heat Shield Tip technology. The reason is that in our Doppler testing found that bullets needed 2 things to show tip degradation –
1) a high G1 ballistic coefficient over about .550
2) a long duration of exposure to high temperature.
The 105gr A-Max does not have a high enough BC and loses velocity rapidly enough that the tip is not exposed to the temperature long enough to cause deformation."

With that, not all the AMax bullets are getting the Heat Shield Tips.
Donovan

A lot of people are acting like every bullet does it every time...
The above seems to be the most reasonable explanation and since Donovan got it right from the horses mouth it makes perfect sense. Some bullets are going to have problem and some won't. It sounds like they're upgrading the bullets that have potential to have a problem with the tip and leaving the others alone. A good company doing the right thing!

 

[chkunz]

A lot of people are acting like every bullet does it every time...
The above seems to be the most reasonable explanation and since Donovan got it right from the horses mouth it makes perfect sense. Some bullets are going to have problem and some won't. It sounds like they're upgrading the bullets that have potential to have a problem with the tip and leaving the others alone. A good company doing the right thing!

I agree, they are a good company and I trust them to do the right thing and if they can throw a little marketing in the mix then I am ok with that also. We are fortunate to have several good bullet companies providing such a wide variety of great products, more so than ever in our sport.

 

[Changeling]

Here is a link to what bullets look like in flight. Might help you to see heat areas. The little red dot to your right is the tip.
Link taken from a post on ballistics forum: http://www.advancedimagingpro.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=1&id=180&pageNum=1

 

[chkunz]

Here is a link to what bullets look like in flight. Might help you to see heat areas. The little red dot to your right is the tip.
Link taken from a post on ballistics forum: http://www.advancedimagingpro.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=1&id=180&pageNum=1

Interesting, notice that the tip of the bullet is only 338 DEG F

 

[Brians356]

If you search the "Bulletin" tap on this form you can find the technical paper by Dave Emery of Hornady on this subject and it has some good technical information.

Good technical information isn't going to help or convince certain folk - present company not excepted. It doesn't yield compelling narrative around the campfire. Replay in your mind the opening scenes from "Blazing Saddles".
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[normmatzen]

I am very skeptical! I use 105 A-MAX in my 6BRX as well as 162 A-MAX in my 284 WIN. Both out-shot the hybrids in these guns. Both guns are used fo 600 and 1000 bench rest and F-Open.
I just ordered 500 105's but 162's are un-obtainium! However, I can order the ELD-Match at a price well above the A-MAX's?
Let's see, 105 A-MAX must work as they haven't been superseded by ELD's but 7mm 162's (which fly at slower speed than the 6mm) have been taken off the market and replaced with the ELD-Match at a higher price. And, I have to re-develop the load for my 284 WIN as the bullet is different. The A-MAX's had to be weight segregated but I didn't mind as they ultimately shot great. But now, other brands look more desirable as Hornady does not have the price advantage anymore and I would expect I still have to weight sort them.
Does this make sense?

 

[ireload2]

What will Sierra and Nosler do or did they get their bullets right the first time?

 

[Brians356]

I am very skeptical! I use 105 A-MAX in my 6BRX as well as 162 A-MAX in my 284 WIN. Both out-shot the hybrids in these guns. Both guns are used fo 600 and 1000 bench rest and F-Open.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You'll never know how much better the ELD-X might have shot for you than the A-Max. What you're saying in essence is "The A-Max is plenty good enough for me!" And that may well be true.
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[Brians356]

What will Sierra and Nosler do or did they get their bullets right the first time?

I guarantee you they're scrambling to look into this phenomenon. They'll either produce a similar improvement, or produce evidence that the alleged phenomenon is poppycock and their tipped bullets are just fine - and cheaper. I suppose they could just ignore it and hope it fades away, which, even if Hornady has it dead right, could happen.
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[chkunz]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You'll never know how much better the ELD-X might have shot for you than the A-Max. What you're saying in essence is "The A-Max is plenty good enough for me!" And that may well be true.
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I understand completely. I spent a lifetime helping solve complicated technical problems and I can not resist jumping in when I see a challenge. The paper by Dave Emery was not as technical as I would have liked but probably enough for the intended audience. They did not say the tips melted which has been repeated several times. Unless they have technical data that they did not present they worked on a theory and changed two things, tip material and shape and the problem went away. That is all I really need to know but I enjoy the technical stuff.

 

[DaveTooley]

Interesting, notice that the tip of the bullet is only 338 DEG F

At the time the photo was taken.

 

[dmoran]

Interesting, notice that the tip of the bullet is only 338 DEG F

Yepper.... at 3' from the muzzle and already at 338-F

 

[ireload2]

There is another alternative. They (Sierra and Nosler) may have expected the problem in the beginning and made sure their designs were right the first time.
I have had Speer .303 cal cup and core spitzers leave lead comet tails on paper targets at 25 yards. Lead cored bullets have been disappearing in mid air ever since the .220 Swift was introduced, so I wonder why anyone would be surprised by a melted plastic tip. I have always been suspicious of plastic tipped bullets being over heated especially in the salt and pepper bores found in some old rifles.
We all know bullets get hot. Why would you not test enough to know that your bullets are not melting?

I believe at one time Speer alleged that lead tipped spitzer bullets slumped some when fired in magnum rifles. At least it seems I remember that as being part of the excuse for the Speer Mag Tip bullet design.

I guarantee you they're scrambling to look into this phenomenon. They'll either produce a similar improvement, or produce evidence that the alleged phenomenon is poppycock and their tipped bullets are just fine - and cheaper. I suppose they could just ignore it and hope it fades away, which, even if Hornady has it dead right, could happen.
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[dmoran]

This is my own take on what happens:
There is not any issues (degradation) with tips until they have traveled at least certain amount of time/distance (like say 1000yds) and are above certain speeds still at those distances (also the ambient atmosphere that there being shot in has an effect as well). Then what happens to the culprits is there is degradation to the tip, which changes the coefficient of the bullet, that in return could effect ballistic and accuracy potential after those time frames/speed. But the degradation and variation in BC does not happen until after certain amount of flight time and above certain speeds. There for the bullets would act normal until those possible degradation parameters are met and only have an effect on the bullets flight there after.

My 2-Cents
Donovan

 

[chkunz]

This is my own take on what happens:
There is not any issues (degradation) with tips until they have traveled at least certain amount of time/distance (like say 1000yds) and are above certain speeds still at those distances (also the ambient atmosphere that there being shot in has an effect as well). Then what happens to the culprits is there is degradation to the tip, which changes the coefficient of the bullet, that in return could effect ballistic and accuracy potential after those time frames/speed. But the degradation and variation in BC does not happen until after certain amount of flight time and above certain speeds. There for the bullets would act normal until those possible degradation parameters are met and only have an effect on the bullets flight there after.

My 2-Cents
Donovan

More theory, theory is ok to guide analysis and analysis is good to guide experimentation. I would like to see some analysis based on physics and aerodynamics and would really like to see some data. Hornady may have some of this information but I can understand why they would not publish it.

 

[chkunz]

This is my own take on what happens:
There is not any issues (degradation) with tips until they have traveled at least certain amount of time/distance (like say 1000yds) and are above certain speeds still at those distances (also the ambient atmosphere that there being shot in has an effect as well). Then what happens to the culprits is there is degradation to the tip, which changes the coefficient of the bullet, that in return could effect ballistic and accuracy potential after those time frames/speed. But the degradation and variation in BC does not happen until after certain amount of flight time and above certain speeds. There for the bullets would act normal until those possible degradation parameters are met and only have an effect on the bullets flight there after.

My 2-Cents
Donovan

dmoran, I reread my reply to you above and it did not sound respectful, so let me be clear that I did not mean any disrespect but am just trying to guide the conversation beyond opinion. Opinion and theory may be all that we have, however.

 

[clowdis]

If you read their technical paper on this, they say they also changed the bullet shape.

According to Hornady tech the design of the 162 gr. 7mm has not changed other than they put the new tip on it. Just by eyeballing I can see no difference in the profile between the A-max and ELD.

 

[Brians356]

This is my own take on what happens:
There is not any issues (degradation) with tips until they have traveled at least certain amount of time/distance (like say 1000yds) and are above certain speeds still at those distances (also the ambient atmosphere that there being shot in has an effect as well).

That's how I understand Hornday's explanation, except they say it can happen over shorter distances, like beyond 300 yards, certainly by 600 yards.
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[Berger.Fan222]

That's how I understand Hornday's explanation, except they say it can happen over shorter distances, like beyond 300 yards, certainly by 600 yards.
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This is my impression as well. In their published radar data (report), they clearly show increases in drag long before 1000 yards.