Do you believe Hornady

[ireload2]

You would think a nearly 70 year old bullet company could get the melting point of the plastic right on the first try.

 

[DHuffman]

I'm curious why I haven't seen a 6mm 105 bullet with the new tip you would think it would meet the criteria for speed and time of flight since it's a popular long range round.

 

[dmoran]

I'm curious why I haven't seen a 6mm 105 bullet with the new tip you would think it would meet the criteria for speed and time of flight since it's a popular long range round.

Below is a Hornady tech's reply to my email to them asking about the 105-AMax:

"The 105 A-Max will not be made using the new Heat Shield Tip technology. The reason is that in our Doppler testing found that bullets needed 2 things to show tip degradation –
1) a high G1 ballistic coefficient over about .550
2) a long duration of exposure to high temperature.
The 105gr A-Max does not have a high enough BC and loses velocity rapidly enough that the tip is not exposed to the temperature long enough to cause deformation."

With that, not all the AMax bullets are getting the Heat Shield Tips.
Donovan

 

[DHuffman]

Below is a Hornady tech's reply to my email to them asking about the 105-AMax:

"The 105 A-Max will not be made using the new Heat Shield Tip technology. The reason is that in our Doppler testing found that bullets needed 2 things to show tip degradation –
1) a high G1 ballistic coefficient over about .550
2) a long duration of exposure to high temperature.
The 105gr A-Max does not have a high enough BC and loses velocity rapidly enough that the tip is not exposed to the temperature long enough to cause deformation."

With that, not all the AMax bullets are getting the Heat Shield Tips.
Donovan

I haven'the studied bc's much lately but wouldn't say a .308 bullet not meet those requirements? It seemed like they were pumping out the 6.5 and the 308 bullets.

 

[Huckleberry75]

I'm curious why I haven't seen a 6mm 105 bullet with the new tip you would think it would meet the criteria for speed and time of flight since it's a popular long range round.

My guess is that they need something for Shot Show 2017

 

[dmoran]

I believe in "BigFoot" because I use to see one from time to time walking around picking up brass at a range that I use to shoot at. Or it was a big hairy man with big feet that resembled a "Bigfoot" !.!.!

I believe in Hornady, because there an American company with many hard working American employee's that take pride in there work. Or at least all the ones that I know and have met do !.!.!

But I don't believe Elvis is still alive.........
Donovan

 

[AckleymanII]

I can tell you first hand that I shot 120g Nosler ballistic tips at 3850 and a round bale of hay was the back stop. The hay was smoking from burning inside, this happened shot after shot after shot.

 

[22BRGUY]

I believe in "BigFoot" because I use to see one from time to time walking around picking up brass at a range that I use to shoot at. Or it was a big hairy man with big feet that resembled a "Bigfoot" !.!.!

I believe in Hornady, because there an American company with many hard working American employee's that take pride in there work. Or at least all the ones that I know and have met do !.!.!

But I don't believe Elvis is still alive.........
Donovan

Aw come on Donovan, he was seen recently at a Trump rally.

 

[DaveTooley]

To all the doubting Thomas'.

I know for a fact that what they have reported is the truth. Many of us in the 1K game knew that something strange, not wildly strange but still strange was occasionally happening with A-Max's. I knew it, Hornady knew it and Regan Green, who had his own back yard 1K range knew it and proved there was a problem years ago. Remember he's the guy that shot a Hvy Gun 3 target agg. in the 4"+ range in Iowa shooting Berger's because the consistency was there with the A-Max's. Something odd was going on. The problem was no one had the resolution to identify the problem. Then came Dopplar. A game changer. Hornady knew immediately something was going on with the tip with certain bullets. Since their announcement last year I've seen independent Dopplar data that confirms their findings about heat deforming the tips. There's a lot of very smart people from different companies using very sophisticated equipment and science behind these claims.

 

[clowdis]

I believe that there is some truth to Hornady's claims. I shot some 162 A-max and some 162 ELDs through my .284 in the last match in consecutive relays. Both were loaded with the same powder and die settings. The ELDs needed about 1 minute less elevation at 1,000 yards than the A-max's. That tells me that there is something more aerodynamic about the ELDs. The only difference between the bullets is the tips.

 

[Cold Bore]

That goes against what Hornady themselves have said. In the American Rifleman (NRA) magazine, they described the problem as occurring at maximum velocity with their polymer tips. Velocity slows as flight time extends, so the tip would be cooling.

True, but think of the entire package (speed and time).

When Hornady says maximum velocity, I tend to believe that they mean maximum velocity for that bullet, not just in any individual trip downrange. Think the same bullet in a 22-250 versus a 222 Rem, or a 30-378 versus a 30-06. Same bullet, much different velocities.

Also, a bullet traveling downrange doesn't have much time to cool down, even if losing velocity and the associated air friction.

If you heat up your stove, and then turn it off, the elements are cooling, just like you theorize with the bullet as it loses velocity.

However, put your hand on that "cooling" element. A quick touch (short range shot), and you're likely fine. Might be enough to make you jump, but not enough time to blister your skin.

Keep it on there (long range shot), and even that "cooling" element will singe your skin.

Not saying Hornady is right or wrong, but IF they are correct, it would be due to the combination, not just one single aspect of bullet flight.

 

[Cold Bore]

I can tell you first hand that I shot 120g Nosler ballistic tips at 3850 and a round bale of hay was the back stop. The hay was smoking from burning inside, this happened shot after shot after shot.

Was that from the bullet being hot due to flight, or due to some aggressive friction as it was stopped by the hay?

If I pull arrows from a tightly packed straw bale quickly after the shot, the shaft is warmed up. I know for sure that they didn't get that way from a ~200 FPS journey through the air. It came from rubbing their way into that bale.

Multiply that speed by almost 20-fold, and I imagine there is some SERIOUS friction going on inside that bale when it grabs a bullet enough to stop it.

 

[DRNewcomb]

I believe Hornady.

Me too. There's no reason for them to make this up.

 

[Phil]

I`ve been wrong before, and I guarantee it will happen again, I`m don`t have the ability, technology, or the smarticles to prove this right or wrong.....I`ll leave that up to the experts.

Hopefully Hornady finds and corrects something with their bullets, not only will I learn something from it, but we all will benefit from it...

Good luck boy`s....


Phil.

 

[AckleymanII]

Was that from the bullet being hot due to flight, or due to some aggressive friction as it was stopped by the hay?

If I pull arrows from a tightly packed straw bale quickly after the shot, the shaft is warmed up. I know for sure that they didn't get that way from a ~200 FPS journey through the air. It came from rubbing their way into that bale.

Multiply that speed by almost 20-fold, and I imagine there is some SERIOUS friction going on inside that bale when it grabs a bullet enough to stop it.

friction with the atmosphere, makes you wonder just what state the core is in when it reaches an animal.

 

[DaveTooley]

 

[chkunz]

I believe that there is some truth to Hornady's claims. I shot some 162 A-max and some 162 ELDs through my .284 in the last match in consecutive relays. Both were loaded with the same powder and die settings. The ELDs needed about 1 minute less elevation at 1,000 yards than the A-max's. That tells me that there is something more aerodynamic about the ELDs. The only difference between the bullets is the tips.

If you read their technical paper on this, they say they also changed the bullet shape.

 

[chkunz]

True, but think of the entire package (speed and time).

When Hornady says maximum velocity, I tend to believe that they mean maximum velocity for that bullet, not just in any individual trip downrange. Think the same bullet in a 22-250 versus a 222 Rem, or a 30-378 versus a 30-06. Same bullet, much different velocities.

Also, a bullet traveling downrange doesn't have much time to cool down, even if losing velocity and the associated air friction.

If you heat up your stove, and then turn it off, the elements are cooling, just like you theorize with the bullet as it loses velocity.

However, put your hand on that "cooling" element. A quick touch (short range shot), and you're likely fine. Might be enough to make you jump, but not enough time to blister your skin.

Keep it on there (long range shot), and even that "cooling" element will singe your skin.

Not saying Hornady is right or wrong, but IF they are correct, it would be due to the combination, not just one single aspect of bullet flight.

The bullet does not cool down during flight. The stagnation temperature does go down as velocity decreases but the heat transfer to the bullet is still positive and the temperature still rising just not as fast. The one thing no one has presented is calculations on the heat transfer over the time of flight.

 

[chkunz]

True, but think of the entire package (speed and time).

When Hornady says maximum velocity, I tend to believe that they mean maximum velocity for that bullet, not just in any individual trip downrange. Think the same bullet in a 22-250 versus a 222 Rem, or a 30-378 versus a 30-06. Same bullet, much different velocities.

Also, a bullet traveling downrange doesn't have much time to cool down, even if losing velocity and the associated air friction.

If you heat up your stove, and then turn it off, the elements are cooling, just like you theorize with the bullet as it loses velocity.

However, put your hand on that "cooling" element. A quick touch (short range shot), and you're likely fine. Might be enough to make you jump, but not enough time to blister your skin.

Keep it on there (long range shot), and even that "cooling" element will singe your skin.

Not saying Hornady is right or wrong, but IF they are correct, it would be due to the combination, not just one single aspect of bullet flight.

Yes, good point, speed is changing with time, stagnation temperatures are changing with speed and heat transfer takes time so tip heating is also a function of time. That is why Hornady is working on theory because this is a very technical and complicated dynamic engineering aerodynamic problem.

 

[Joe Salt]

I think Hornady knows what there doing. They didn't spend all that money on the Doppler Radar for nothing. I can't remember what Magazine it was in, but it had a graph that showed something happening to the bullet at long range. And I also know a few guys that are shooting them and doing very well. I don't think that Hornady is going to shoot them selves in the foot for nothing. There making the change for a reason, and they are using technology to find what is wrong.

Joe Salt