Do I time my trigger?

[Alex Wheeler]

You need to measure your firing pin fall. I just had two brand new Pandas in. One needed a .020 and the other a .050 trigger hanger to get the .240-.250 required pin fall. You cant reverse trigger hangers on Kelblys. They are one way. Theres a notch the cocking piece travels through, that goes to the rear. Timing a Kelblys requires cutting a new cocking cam helix to do it right and maintain that pin fall. An expensive job. I no longer do them because theres many other options out there if you prefer that smooth timed bolt that dont not require as much work.

 

[jackieschmidt]

In my opinion, the Bat Nuevo is the smoothest and best feeling action on bolt closing.

I have Three Neuvo actions. The very first one I bought was not that impressive. It was slick as Ice on Ice. But it did not really shoot that well, considering the price and “press”.
I checked the spring pressure, and it was only about 17 lbs.

I made a spacer for the spring, out tungston, increasing the static pressure to 24 pounds, and it came to life.

I then read where Bullet Central, the sole distributor for the Neuvo, was offering a heavier pin fall.

All three of mine have 24 pound springs, and shoot great.

However, since there is no free lunch, the openning And closing I’d noticeably more difficult.

Alex is right, other fixes to require more work. If modify the cocking helix, you then have to modify the forward end of the firing pin so it takes advantage of the longer helix. Of course, modifying the helix means more travel, but remember, you only have 90 degrees of bolt travel. That means you are loosing mechanical advantage, and things get harder.

There is no free lunch. Kelbly decided decades ago that Mike Walker and crew got it right with the Remington Fire Control. Their actions are still, more or less, a copy.

I have always thought that Bat made a mistake when some years back they abandoned the time proven screwed in shroud assembly for the block arrangement they use now. All they did was open up a cottage industry of Gunsmiths “fixing” the resulting problems.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Jackie, most of those problems went away when they changed the guidance. Originally the square cocking piece touched the shroud and was guided that way. The firing pin was free floated inside the front of the shroud. Probably about 10 years ago they changed it to be guided like a Rem style action. The square cocking piece floats (or should) and the pin is guided by the shroud. On the Neuvo they fit the shouds to tigher tollerance and in my opinion this is one of the main bennefits. You find much less pin bind in Nuevos. I fit oversized shrouds in the 2 lugs and Bordens for this reason. It really cleans up the pin travel. We have tested springs in Nuevos. They are no different than other actions, you need enough spring just as you found.

 

[leclairk]

Thanks everyone for the input. I suspect I will live with it. I shot a number of rifles over the last few years and this is the first one I’ve felt like the bolt is too stiff. I don’t need a benchrest gun but when something doesn’t feel right you notice it. Part of my concern is that I put this rifle together for my 12 year old son to hunt with. He’s not a small kid but he’s obviously not as strong as an adult. We shoot a lot so I will give him time with the gun and see how he does. If he struggles to chamber rounds (he never has on any of my other guns) then it’s obviously something I’ll need to address.

 

[BoydAllen]

You need to measure your firing pin fall. I just had two brand new Pandas in. One needed a .020 and the other a .050 trigger hanger to get the .240-.250 required pin fall. You cant reverse trigger hangers on Kelblys. They are one way. Theres a notch the cocking piece travels through, that goes to the rear. Timing a Kelblys requires cutting a new cocking cam helix to do it right and maintain that pin fall. An expensive job. I no longer do them because theres many other options out there if you prefer that smooth timed bolt that dont not require as much work.

Back when Jerry suggested that I reverse the hanger in my early viper I could see that it needed a notch to work that way, which I managed to cut, carefully, with the edge of a small file. Since it was a matter of clearance and not fit, it has worked fine ever since. Sounds like the Kelbly hangers are similar, unless there is something else going on besides the need for an added notch.

 

[leclairk]

Perhaps it’s not an issue of the being too far back.( that can be fixed with an offset hanger),,,,,,,

It may be protruding too high in the action, and putting upward force on the bolt.

If I had to guess I would say that is the problem. When I close the bolt it feels like two pieces of metal grinding together. I can move the bolt up and down and feel it grinding. I wish I had more experience/knowledge in this area but triggers are a mystery to me. I have no idea if making some kind of adjustment would make a difference.

 

[X-Caveman]

I have a 2020 vintage Atlas Tactical/ Tigger Tech Special in a hunting gun. It's one of the earliest ones with the 1-piece bolt. After reading this thread, I took it out and messed with it. The 1st 10-15 deg of bolt closing when cocking piece clears the "notch" and bolt cams forward is a little clunky to start. Similar to a Stiller TAC 30/ Timney combo that I had out, possibly a little more pronounced. After that, there's a slight hitch at hand-off (seems dead neutral) then a buttery close the remainder of the way. It's easy to close with my index finger, dry fire, and roll open the same way. When I grab the bolt handle and cycle it with some speed, these things are barely noticeable. Feed a round from a magazine and the whole thing is moot/ drowned out by the mechanics of that process.

The one negative to my set-up is I'm a little shy on pin fall @ about .225". I guess I need to actually try shooting some groups with it, but for game within 250 yards, it's more than adequate.

What you say above about metal-on-metal grinding is concerning. If it were mine, I'd strip the bolt, clean it out thoroughly, grease the shroud threads, lugs and primary extraction areas & re-assemble. If that doesn't help, I'd go back to Kelby's and press them to let you send it in.

Best of luck with it.

 

[leclairk]

I did send the action to PVA to have it cerakoted. I did not have them cerakote the bolt body but they did cerakote the handle and the rear cover. Maybe that’s my issue. Again, without the trigger installed it closes beautifully. I guess I should take it all apart and clean/lube as you suggest.

 

[X-Caveman]

I'm kinda above my pay grade in guessing, but if there's cerakote on the action body and bolt handle on the primary extraction cam areas, shroud threads maybe that's goofing things up? I know it should be thin, but things happen simultaneously and these things have primary extraction (wouldn't be as forgiving as say some R700s). Hopefully the smart guys can put a theory/ test together for ya.

 

[jackieschmidt]

I'm kinda above my pay grade in guessing, but if there's cerakote on the action body and bolt handle on the primary extraction cam areas, shroud threads maybe that's goofing things up? I know it should be thin, but things happen simultaneously and these things have primary extraction (wouldn't be as forgiving as say some R700s). Hopefully the smart guys can put a theory/ test together for ya.

The only way to mechanically test the components is to take everything apart, including the firing pin assembly.

Try the shroud in the threads, It should go in with no bind.

re assemble the bolt without the spring. The firing pin should fall back and forth with no more effort that gravity.

The trick is finding where the culprit is if something is causing it to bind. If you suspect something, either send it back to the manufacture, or Alex Wheeler.

 

[leclairk]

If the bolt operates normally without the trigger installed is there any reason to disassemble the bolt and clean/lube it?

 

[leclairk]

Something is screwed up with it. If I slam the bolt closed the trigger fires. What a pain in the ass. At this point I think I’ll just take it to my smith and let him sort it out.

 

[Ccrider]

Something is screwed up with it. If I slam the bolt closed the trigger fires. What a pain in the ass. At this point I think I’ll just take it to my smith and let him sort it out.

Clean the trigger.
If that dies not fix it, it needs to be adjusted.

 

[leclairk]

Thank you @Rewinder for the suggestion. I reversed the trigger hanger and reinstalled the trigger. Much better. It’s still stiffer than my other actions but not bad at all. It also got rid of the trigger firing when I slam the bolt. Thanks everyone for all the help.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Thank you @Rewinder for the suggestion. I reversed the trigger hanger and reinstalled the trigger. Much better. It’s still stiffer than my other actions but not bad at all. It also got rid of the trigger firing when I slam the bolt. Thanks everyone for all the help.

Pin fall still good? .240-.260ish

 

[leclairk]

Pin fall still good? .240-.260ish

I get .245

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I get .245

Sounds great to me!

 

[FNSafari]

The only way to mechanically test the components is to take everything apart, including the firing pin assembly.

Try the shroud in the threads, It should go in with no bind.

re assemble the bolt without the spring. The firing pin should fall back and forth with no more effort that gravity.

The trick is finding where the culprit is if something is causing it to bind. If you suspect something, either send it back to the manufacture, or Alex Wheeler.

I emailed Alex a while ago regarding him looking at an action and he told me he is doing just complete builds. Is that true or has he changed his mind? Tks

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I emailed Alex a while ago regarding him looking at an action and he told me he is doing just complete builds. Is that true or has he changed his mind? Tks

Im trying to keep my turn around times down as much as I can. I have made a lot of progress over the last couple years. I have got my turn arounds to less than half of what they were. To do this I have been trying to narrow up the types of work I take. You can always ask, and if I feel like I can take certain jobs without being buried up again then I will.

 

[Pete Wass]

Pin fall still good? .240-.260ish

So, how deep a dent are you looking for in the primers?

Thanks