I am just enjoying Christmas. Thanks Tom, but you will have the ones that need absolute scientific proof. Even though I have put over 30,000 rounds on paper at 1000 yards. Sometimes I even color and test in a match with 2 colors. Round Robin and see if there is a difference. Not major differences but little ones. Might have to do it a few times to see if it repeats. The only way you keep winning and setting records in this game is work hard and test test test. Matt
Digital scale, FX-120i
- Thread starter nakneker
- Start date
dmoran
Donovan Moran
@jlow -
In my experience, from my own testing, a 100th scale is inadequate for my own demands to both charge weights and primer qualifications. And is why I recommend 1000th-grain scales (as do Matt, Tom, and others) to the forum, so that people understand why 100th-grain scales may not be fine enough resolution for there demands either.
Donovan
In my experience, from my own testing, a 100th scale is inadequate for my own demands to both charge weights and primer qualifications. And is why I recommend 1000th-grain scales (as do Matt, Tom, and others) to the forum, so that people understand why 100th-grain scales may not be fine enough resolution for there demands either.
Donovan
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You are right, I remained unconvinced....
Agreed, but of course as you pointed out, you (and I) can both see differences with 0.1 grain differences on paper. That logic also does not mean that increase in precision affecting what we see on paper can goes on forever - logic dictates that it would not happen.
What remains is showing me that you can see on paper a 0.015 grain difference in the weight of the primer - that is what is missing.
Well fellows the reason I weigh primers on my Sartorius Entris is to keep the ones that are5.3805 from being mixed with the ones 5.5604! Is this enough variation to make a difference? So if you take one out of the box at these two weights, what do you think will happen! Merry Christmas
Joe Salt
Joe Salt
What process or tool do you use to move the primer on and off the scale so not to disrupt the balance? Looking for a jump start on productivity
Ben
Ben
Do you feel this is what helps you break all those Records? From what I have observed there are about 3 or 4 guys that are breaking them consistently. There must be a reason for this, because the groups and aggregates in 1000 yard BR are getting really small. I feel it is not luck to see the same guys breaking them time and time again. Nobody can be that lucky. Anybody can get lucky and shoot a small target on any given day, but the aggregates tell the story. Matt
I'd like to start weighing primers. Can you tell me more about your weight selection process? More importantly, can you tell me more about the data you gathered when you say "the targets tell me". Exactly what does that mean?
For example, I have several procedures I use to load my premium competition ammo, just like everyone else does. Although I believe some steps are worth it, in several instances I am unable to prove a particular step as a definite improvement (or not). Here is one case: I shape the inside of my case necks just before bullet seating using an under-sized bullet shaped mandrel in an attempt to remove any out-of-round condition caused by the normal brass handling between when they're shot and when the next bullet is seated.
But a test session based on performing this step was inconclusive. I scan and measure my 5 shot groups using On Target software. Then I take that data and add MV, SD, and a half dozen other peramaters and study the information in M.S. Excel. I graph the results in an attempt to tease any significant changes out of the natural noise associated with trying to measure group size and shape produced by a human holding a rifle on a bench rest shooting through the atmosphere even though I do all my testing on a wind protected range at the crack of dawn and only in what I judge to be still conditions.
I suspect any benefit to weighing primers would produce a small improvement, if any, because if the difference were huge, everyone would be doing it including hunters. How exactly do you measure this tiny improvement with any certainty? Do you have a test tunnel and some sort of sophisticated gun vise? How many rounds does it take to get data you have confidence in? Inquiring minds want to know.
dmoran
Donovan Moran
@Barrel Nut
When I tested primer weights, it was over multiple days in one time frame. It was basically obvious on almost every target; meaning when unsorted, groups were predominantly larger, more vertical, more ES, and more spread out. Opposed to sorted, where the groups were predominantly smaller, less vertical, lower ES, and tighter in spread.
Then when conducting refined tests from within my weight sorted qualifications, fired outliers from both ends of the qualifications simultaneously as 1 group at one aim point. They had poor overlap and clustered fairly distinctively vertically from one another.
Tested 3 separate Lot's and had difference between them as to the amount of weight extremes. Even the best Lot that had the least variance in weights, yielded the same indifference in the testing, just not as extreme since the weights were not as extreme.
My testing was done at 1000 yards, with the comp rifles and rests setups that I use at matches. Would never consider clamping the rifles into a "gun vise", for that would also change the rifles harmonics, POI, and accuracy capability. Besides, my tests need to be relevant to my rifles, rest setups, and reloading practices.
Edit in:
When I first suspected primers to be possibly effecting my accuracy levels, I weighed some and was surprised at the percentage of weight indifference to that Lot. I then had a conversation with Matt (@dkhunt14) to what I was seeing, and it was on Matt's advise that I should look into it closer. That was several years ago now, but will always be Thankful to Matt for his insight and sharing his wealth of knowledge with me (which he does on almost a daily bases with everyone here, that reads his inputs and smart enough to listen).
Donovan
When I tested primer weights, it was over multiple days in one time frame. It was basically obvious on almost every target; meaning when unsorted, groups were predominantly larger, more vertical, more ES, and more spread out. Opposed to sorted, where the groups were predominantly smaller, less vertical, lower ES, and tighter in spread.
Then when conducting refined tests from within my weight sorted qualifications, fired outliers from both ends of the qualifications simultaneously as 1 group at one aim point. They had poor overlap and clustered fairly distinctively vertically from one another.
Tested 3 separate Lot's and had difference between them as to the amount of weight extremes. Even the best Lot that had the least variance in weights, yielded the same indifference in the testing, just not as extreme since the weights were not as extreme.
My testing was done at 1000 yards, with the comp rifles and rests setups that I use at matches. Would never consider clamping the rifles into a "gun vise", for that would also change the rifles harmonics, POI, and accuracy capability. Besides, my tests need to be relevant to my rifles, rest setups, and reloading practices.
Edit in:
When I first suspected primers to be possibly effecting my accuracy levels, I weighed some and was surprised at the percentage of weight indifference to that Lot. I then had a conversation with Matt (@dkhunt14) to what I was seeing, and it was on Matt's advise that I should look into it closer. That was several years ago now, but will always be Thankful to Matt for his insight and sharing his wealth of knowledge with me (which he does on almost a daily bases with everyone here, that reads his inputs and smart enough to listen).
Donovan
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this primer talk is very interesting to me fellas . if I could get a couple questions answered I'd appreciate it . I've never tried sorting primers , so here are a few questions from a know nothing on this topic . do you guys see a better primer in the " match " primers ? are these more consistent in weight , right out of the box ? is there othere benefits to the " match " primer ? would weight sorted NON match primers be equal to " match " primers ? Thanks Jim
dmoran
Donovan Moran
@jimbires
Myself, I don't use match primers, so can't speak to those aspects of your questions... sorry
I do how ever see primer Lot's that hold tighter weights and thickness', that I feel are better on a whole. But do feel that my "qualified" primers from any Lot are capable and deem them good enough for me.
Donovan
Myself, I don't use match primers, so can't speak to those aspects of your questions... sorry
I do how ever see primer Lot's that hold tighter weights and thickness', that I feel are better on a whole. But do feel that my "qualified" primers from any Lot are capable and deem them good enough for me.
Donovan
The difference between Federal match primers and regulars is that the match primers get a visual inspection. Weights can vary good or bad with either. I have seen a few primers in both that were almost 2 full grains difference. It is rare but does happen.. I use regular and sort by coating and weight.
Will you see the difference from weighing them. Maybe, maybe not. All the other aspects of loading has to be right. I believe a lot of guns couldn't shoot the difference. I also believe it won't show up at shorter distances. In a really good gun with good tuning it shows at 1000. Does it make the groups magically smaller, no. It does help do away with what I call leakers. The groups get slightly smaller and rounder. The outlying shots seem to blend in better. I have shot targets with 5 red and 5 blue colored bullets in the same match sets to see dispersion. When something shows up most of the time with two different guns and repeats over and over in a year, you can clearly see what helps. Matt
Will you see the difference from weighing them. Maybe, maybe not. All the other aspects of loading has to be right. I believe a lot of guns couldn't shoot the difference. I also believe it won't show up at shorter distances. In a really good gun with good tuning it shows at 1000. Does it make the groups magically smaller, no. It does help do away with what I call leakers. The groups get slightly smaller and rounder. The outlying shots seem to blend in better. I have shot targets with 5 red and 5 blue colored bullets in the same match sets to see dispersion. When something shows up most of the time with two different guns and repeats over and over in a year, you can clearly see what helps. Matt
I started the primer sort process today with CCI 450 primers. Today, my loaded rounds & brass are managed in 50 rd. boxes sorted by the # times fired. Would you only shoot the primer sorts in tournaments?....or for my packing process is any primer wgt. sort volume of 50+ be considered tournament grade? Here is what I have just sorted. How many final sorts (consolidations) are needed/recommended?
Ben
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