Details on AR Tactical in NRA High Power (Midrange)

[Ned Ludd]

Highpower rule 10.1.6 specifically designates that rounds must be single fed in "slow fire":

10.1.6 Loading in Slow Fire—In all slow fire events, the rifle will be loaded with only one cartridge at a time. The cartridge shall be inserted in the magazine or chamber only when the rifle is pointed down range. Resting a loaded rifle on a shooting stool or on the foot, is prohibited. (See Rule 10.1.3).


The Tactical (AR) Class is part of Highpower:

"The courses of fire will be the same courses of fire currently used for other NRA Mid-Range (Prone) High Power Competition (300,500 & 600 yards) and are designed to be fired concurrently with other forms of Mid-Range competition."

As long as the event is "slow fire", this specifically means that the Tactical (AR) Class rifle is NOT fired from a loaded magazine. It is to be single fed. However, the rules also state that a magazine must be used. This is the conundrum involving feeding and the use of magazine followers (sleds), which are specifically banned in this class:

• 3.3.3 NRA Mid-Range (Prone) Tactical Rifle (AR) (PROVISIONAL)

g. Magazine – Standard 10-, 20-, or 30- round magazines must be used. Reduced capacity magazines and “sleds” are prohibited. Magazine may not be used for support and may not touch the ground during firing or recoil. See Rule 5.2.

If an event is "slow fire", the Rules designate single feeding. But they also designate a mag must be used in Tactical (AR) Class. This begs the following two questions:

1) Why designate that a mag must be used and stipulate that rounds must be single fed in slow fire events if the intent was to feed rounds from the mag? This makes little sense to me.

2) Why should a mag follower be disallowed in a slow fire event, if the rules dictate that you have to single feed anyhow? This is what kzin was referring to above. Again, this makes no sense. All it means is that you have to do it manually without the follower, which certainly isn't impossible, but may be a little more [unnecessarily] difficult.


If the intent for Tactical (AR) Class was to fire rounds loaded from a magazine in slow fire events, the Rules need to state that clearly. My guess is that was not the intent, but it is not clear from the Rules. The problem would be that if that WAS the intent and they re-write the Rule, then you'd have the Tactical (AR) Class shooters feeding rounds from a mag alongside other shooters that were single feeding, which creates potential issues by some people's opinions. If the intent was only to have a mag in place at all times, but not to actually load it, or feed rounds from it, then there is no good reason to ban the use of a mag follower. Either way, this is an area that needs to be clarified in future versions of the Rules for this class. As has been stated, the current version is "Provisional", which almost certainly means they will be subject to changes over time.

 

[tflorman]

I agree that the "no sled" part of this rule is silly if they intend folks to single load (and it's pretty clear to me that they do), however even if one has to use a regular magazine/follower, it's really not that big of a deal. Thankfully, this rule is provisional and will undoubtedly get clarified during the 3 year period they mention in the rule book.

As for my earlier faux pas about the caliber requirements... yep, you're right, I completely misspoke.

 

[DR1586]

Ok, it’s official. There are more posts in this thread than people actually shooting this discipline.

 

[Ned Ludd]

You do understand that our lives don't already contain enough strife and confusion, so we have to artificially boost them, right?

 

[DR1586]

You do understand that our lives don't already contain enough strife and confusion, so we have to artificially boost them, right?

Well then the internet is your best option by far.

 

[ptf18]

Fellows. I doubt I'll ever be shooting in the "tactical rifle class" as I'm too old to try something "new" and have been shooting NRA/CMP XTC for a long time. But a couple of things to consider and perhaps you all can give me some answers.

I don't understand why the phrase "rapid fire" is being used in the course of fire for mid-range matches. Isn't ALL firing for ANY of the mid-range matches slow fire (ie, single round loaded, empty magazine if the gun has a magazine)? In XTC shooting we have a rapid stage at 200 yards (sitting) and at 300 yards (prone) but that's XTC matches.

This leads me the use/non use of magazines. If the idea of this New class is to "encourage" AR owners to shoot "competitively" with the equipment they more than likely own (currently) I can understand the reason to have a magazine IN the rifle. IMHO its a "cost' issue as the NEW shooter doesn't have to purchase something he'll never use in a "tactical" situation. BUT... the consequence of the mandatory use (installation) of a magazine is that it makes single loading .... a bit more "challenging". I'm certain that NEW shooters would/will gripe about as when they are in a "tactical" situation they would never load directly into the chamber but rather from a charged magazine. Single loading into the chamber with a magazine in place is possible. Heck we XTC shooters did it for years before SLEDs came along.

The issue I could envision if this "tactical rifle class" would be allowed to use "charged" magazine (as they would be using in "tactical" situations) would be pit personal safety. If Im in the pits pulling targets, I am not really fond of the idea of pulling targets down while someone on the firing line has a rifle with a chambered round pointing in my direction. In XTC shooting, the pit personal step back away from the target during any stage when a loaded rifle is being pointed "down range" at the targets. So... IMHO its single loading , with a magazine installed. Now if you want to pull the magazine out everytime to load a single round into it, seat it into the rifle and charge the rifle so be it. OR load... 20 magazines with 1 round. OR learn how to chamber a round with the magazine installed.

As for the ammo being of magazine length, IMHO I could careless BUT if this class is based on a "tactical" application I would say that the ammo needs to "fit" into the magazine as "tactical shooters' would not not be using longer than magazine length ammo in a "tactical situation". AND if you look back years ago there isn't a "need" to use "long" seated bullets at least in the .223 ARs. We used the 69/68 gn SMK and Hornady bullets 25-30 years ago out to 600 yards and shot very well with them. Besides if this new class of shooting is to "encourage" (new) AR shooters to shoot I seriously doubt that the majority of them are going to be handloading using "long" bullets. For that matter I doubt many of them are going to be handloading at all.

Its good to see that the current shooting events are "providential". Hopefully the NRA will receive the input from various match directors holding these events and make needed changes. I'm pretty certain then it will turn to a "equipment" race and any "new" AR owners will once again return to shooting off bags and benches as they have been.

 

[kzin]

I don't understand why the phrase "rapid fire" is being used in the course of fire for mid-range matches. Isn't ALL firing for ANY of the mid-range matches slow fire (ie, single round loaded, empty magazine if the gun has a magazine)? In XTC shooting we have a rapid stage at 200 yards (sitting) and at 300 yards (prone) but that's XTC matches.

You are correct. I think rapids were only brought up in more general arguments regarding mag usage and safety.

 

[243Mendoza]

... If Im in the pits pulling targets, I am not really fond of the idea of pulling targets down while someone on the firing line has a rifle with a chambered round pointing in my direction. In XTC shooting, the pit personal step back away from the target during any stage when a loaded rifle is being pointed "down range" at the targets. ...

The only time I see people with their backs against the pit wall is for long range matches trying to avoid dirt showers from the sighters of shooters having elevation problems. Once on target, pit pullets move toward the frame with one hand on the frame ready to pull the target down after a hit. I don't see how a round is going to hit you in the pits unless you have poor pit protective wall or you don't pull the target all the way down and expose your hand to put the spotter at the top of target .

 

[ptf18]

The only time I see people with their backs against the pit wall is for long range matches trying to avoid dirt showers from the sighters of shooters having elevation problems. Once on target, pit pullets move toward the frame with one hand on the frame ready to pull the target down after a hit. I don't see how a round is going to hit you in the pits unless you have poor pit protective wall or you don't pull the target all the way down and expose your hand to put the spotter at the top of target .

Steve. I agree with you...to a point. Different K.D. ranges offer different amounts of "protection" for the pit personal. Its not just bullets but possible shrapnel from bullets hitting spotters or target frames etc.

My point in my posting was that if "tactical shooters" are allowed to shoot using multiple round loaded magazines in the AR platform the gun by the nature of design (semi-auto) is going to strip a round out of the magazine, chamber it and close the bolt. Thus while you are doing whatever in the pits (marking targets, etc.) a loaded gun is pointed in your immediate direction.

I'm pretty certain that both yourself and I don't deeply feel that this should be a REAL concern BUT in a world of PC..... its a situation that is not something to dismiss lightly.

Heck...look at some of the reasons that removed the "requirement" that NRA XTC matches (during the rapid fire stages) start from the standing position...with a loaded gun.

I hope this "tactical sport" encourages more AR owners to try their hand at "real" shooting not just sitting at a bench shooting targets off rests.

 

[243Mendoza]

Steve. I agree with you...to a point. Different K.D. ranges offer different amounts of "protection" for the pit personal. Its not just bullets but possible shrapnel from bullets hitting spotters or target frames etc.

My point in my posting was that if "tactical shooters" are allowed to shoot using multiple round loaded magazines in the AR platform the gun by the nature of design (semi-auto) is going to strip a round out of the magazine, chamber it and close the bolt. Thus while you are doing whatever in the pits (marking targets, etc.) a loaded gun is pointed in your immediate direction.

I'm pretty certain that both yourself and I don't deeply feel that this should be a REAL concern BUT in a world of PC..... its a situation that is not something to dismiss lightly.

Heck...look at some of the reasons that removed the "requirement" that NRA XTC matches (during the rapid fire stages) start from the standing position...with a loaded gun.

I hope this "tactical sport" encourages more AR owners to try their hand at "real" shooting not just sitting at a bench shooting targets off rests.

Agreed. But I think more and more clubs are going electronic targets which will make this concern moot. But will the NRA ever allow the AR tac rifles shoot from loaded mags? Probably not for whatever reason.

 

[SWRichmond]

Well then the internet is your best option by far.

We will stay on the internet as long as someone there is wrong.

 

[Drolds72]

Agreed. But I think more and more clubs are going electronic targets which will make this concern moot. But will the NRA ever allow the AR tac rifles shoot from loaded mags? Probably not for whatever reason.

here is it, right from the rule book. I plan on shooting this class in a couple of weeks, and plan on using mag length ammo fed from a 30rd mag.

g. Magazine – Standard 10-, 20-, or 30- round magazines must be used. Reduced capacity magazines and “sleds” are prohibited. Magazine may not be used for support and may not touch the ground during fi ring or recoil. See Rule 5.2.

 

[Erud]

here is it, right from the rule book. I plan on shooting this class in a couple of weeks, and plan on using mag length ammo fed from a 30rd mag.

g. Magazine – Standard 10-, 20-, or 30- round magazines must be used. Reduced capacity magazines and “sleds” are prohibited. Magazine may not be used for support and may not touch the ground during fi ring or recoil. See Rule 5.2.

Sounds good, just make sure you only load one round in the magazine at a time.

 

[kzin]

CMP Rimfire Sporter is allowing slow fire from loaded magazines.

CMP m1 Carbine shooters are allowed loaded magazines for slow fire.

CMP Games rulebook -

a)Slow-Fire Loading. In all slow-fire stages, the rifle must be loaded with
only one cartridge, except that M1 Carbines and Rimfire Sporter
Rifles shall be loaded from clips charged with five (5) rounds.


I know that those have no direct bearing on NRA highpower rules but they are very similar events shooting from mags with no carnage.

I think the AR Tactical rules just left out having a similar explicit exception.

 

[Drolds72]

Sounds good, just make sure you only load one round in the magazine at a time.

I believe the term "used" indicates that the magazine should be loaded for the match. That is what a magazine is used for, isn't it? Holding rounds? I would further point to the language that reduced capacity magazines cannot be used. If they only wanted single load, what difference would it make if it was a 5 round? Had it been just denoted as attached, or specified that just the mag be included for the total weight, that would be a much different interpretation. If this language stays with Rule 23, as it goes from provisional to final status, they will have to make it clear if it will supercede the general slowfire rules. Otherwise it seems open to interpretation currently.

 

[Erud]

I believe the term "used" indicates that the magazine should be loaded for the match. That is what a magazine is used for, isn't it? Holding rounds? I would further point to the language that reduced capacity magazines cannot be used. If they only wanted single load, what difference would it make if it was a 5 round? Had it been just denoted as attached, or specified that just the mag be included for the total weight, that would be a much different interpretation. If this language stays with Rule 23, as it goes from provisional to final status, they will have to make it clear if it will supercede the general slowfire rules. Otherwise it seems open to interpretation currently.

You are mistaken. All NRA Slow Fire matches are fired under the NRA slow fire rule 10.1.6, regardless of rifle category. Maybe some day they will change the rule to make a special exception for the Tactical class, but I doubt it. I don't have anything to do with writing the rule book, but that is what the rule book says. I don't see how this rule could be interpreted any other way.

10.1.6 Loading in Slow Fire—In all slow fire events, the rifle will be loaded with only one cartridge at a time. The cartridge shall be inserted in the magazine or chamber only when the rifle is pointed down range. Resting a loaded rifle on a shooting stool or on the foot, is prohibited. (See Rule 10.1.3).

 

[Drolds72]

You are mistaken. All NRA Slow Fire matches are fired under the NRA slow fire rule 10.1.6, regardless of rifle category. Maybe some day they will change the rule to make a special exception for the Tactical class, but I doubt it. I don't have anything to do with writing the rule book, but that is what the rule book says. I don't see how this rule could be interpreted any other way.

10.1.6 Loading in Slow Fire—In all slow fire events, the rifle will be loaded with only one cartridge at a time. The cartridge shall be inserted in the magazine or chamber only when the rifle is pointed down range. Resting a loaded rifle on a shooting stool or on the foot, is prohibited. (See Rule 10.1.3)

Yep that is pretty clear. But so is the wording in paragraph g of rule 23. As a provisional rule, it needs some work for sure.

Happy to abide by however the match director interprets it.

On a side note, only have to worry about this once, as my F-open barrels are getting done this week!

 

[Ned Ludd]

I believe the term "used" indicates that the magazine should be loaded for the match. That is what a magazine is used for, isn't it? Holding rounds? I would further point to the language that reduced capacity magazines cannot be used. If they only wanted single load, what difference would it make if it was a 5 round? Had it been just denoted as attached, or specified that just the mag be included for the total weight, that would be a much different interpretation. If this language stays with Rule 23, as it goes from provisional to final status, they will have to make it clear if it will supercede the general slowfire rules. Otherwise it seems open to interpretation currently.

This specific topic has been discussed ad nauseum within/throughout this thread. Read through it carefully and you will see what I mean. The ruling is simply written in an unclear manner. However, when shooting this discipline in a slow fire competition, it wouldn't matter anyhow, as the rules for slow fire specifically state that rounds must be single fed, as is pointed out above.

 

[Drolds72]

This specific topic has been discussed ad nauseum within/throughout this thread. Read through it carefully and you will see what I mean. The ruling is simply written in an unclear manner. However, when shooting this discipline in a slow fire competition, it wouldn't matter anyhow, as the rules for slow fire specifically state that rounds must be single fed, as is pointed out above.

yep duly noted. However I could never pass up a free kick to a dead horse. If Eric says this is the way it is, I am very inclined to believe him, as he has probably forgotten more about the sport than I know. However, it didn't cost me anything to lob the question into the NRA- lets see if they reply, as I have not seen a response from them anywhere else.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Agreed. As the current rules are provisional, hopefully they will be revised in a more clear fashion in a future version. I think this class would be a lot of fun to shoot and they'll [the NRA Rues committee] likely learn a bit over time as more folks try it out. I'd personally like to see the "no mag followers" rule go away. There just doesn't seem to be any good reason not to use one when single feeding during slow fire.