Details on AR Tactical in NRA High Power (Midrange)

[XTR]

Well kzin, I have read this thread over several times, also have done the same with the rules, or what I may call rules. Seems to me that actually nobody truly knows the answer, hence the confusion on my part. So I'll ask this since I have never paid attention to SR, what length ammunition are they shooting, mag length or longer??

Don Dunlap

How do you interpret regulations? Are the permissive or prohibitive? Do you interpret them in such a way that if it's not prohibited then it's allowed or do you interpret them in a way that only what is specifically stated is allowed? (and in this case the rule is silent) Two yrs ago the SR rules did pretty much a 180 with respect to this philosophy with regard to AR15s. It used to be very prescriptive. It is far less so now.

Very few people who shoot SR shoot mag length ammo from the 600 yard line. Shooting the Ar15 in 223Rem most have two loads, one mag length for rapids, usually with a 69 or a 77gr bullet, and another for 600 yds shooting 80gr bullets single loaded, and sleds are common on the line when single loading, so referencing SR means nothing with regard to magazines. On the other hand Tactical would imply mag fed, maybe, if that is what you want.

As stated and re-stated above, this class can be anything you want it to be, it's provisional. I think it's been left fairly open so that MDs can adapt the rules to what ever gets the most attendance.

 

[Dgd6mm]

XTR, I like that, (Provisional). I guess I should have just came right out and said that. Every time I read provisional it stood out. I'm clear....

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

How do you interpret regulations? Are the permissive or prohibitive? Do you interpret them in such a way that if it's not prohibited then it's allowed or do you interpret them in a way that only what is specifically stated is allowed? (and in this case the rule is silent) Two yrs ago the SR rules did pretty much a 180 with respect to this philosophy with regard to AR15s. It used to be very prescriptive. It is far less so now.

Very few people who shoot SR shoot mag length ammo from the 600 yard line. Shooting the Ar15 in 223Rem most have two loads, one mag length for rapids, usually with a 69 or a 77gr bullet, and another for 600 yds shooting 80gr bullets single loaded, and sleds are common on the line when single loading, so referencing SR means nothing with regard to magazines. On the other hand Tactical would imply mag fed, maybe, if that is what you want.

As stated and re-stated above, this class can be anything you want it to be, it's provisional. I think it's been left fairly open so that MDs can adapt the rules to what ever gets the most attendance.

Yes, but the word "provisional" also implies that at some point, the rules will move from being written in tapioca to being chiseled in stone and at that point we will have what we will have.

It's nice to let the MDs figure out how to interpret the rules as they see them for their range, but when you get to a regional, state or national level, people will be in for a surprise.

I remember the first time we held TSRA LR at Bayou Rifles and announced that we would tech the rifles. A little bird told be that lots of people has barrel work done quickly to meet specs.

If your MD allows non-maglength ammo and then you show up at a big match where they don't allow that, you will be "perplexed." The reverse also means that you will be at a disadvantage.

This is why things like this must be ironed out and cannot be left to various interpretations. I'm talking ammo here, something you can't fix on site. Sled VS mag, that's easy to deal with.

So for me, provisional means they are testing the rules, but we need to provide feedback. I will say that anecdotal evidence so far says using the braille targets instead of the F-class targets is a BAD idea. We should not be hearing about cleans already.

 

[Albany Mountain]

A phone call can solve most problems as well as taking mag length ammo and longer coal ammo.

 

[_Raining]

A phone call can solve most problems as well as taking mag length ammo and longer coal ammo.

This is ridiculous. Making specific rules is not hard. The NFL has rules for everything. The powers at be need to decide one way or the other so that specific rules can be created. But understand this, people will find a way to "game". Just like how companies like March now make 2500$ 4.5 power scopes for the new SR rules. If you limit mag length then people will put on cut rifled barrels with chambers to utilize whatever best bullet for mag length exists. They will make it as heavy as they can up to the limit. No matter what you do with the rules, there will always be a best possible configuration.

 

[Albany Mountain]

This is ridiculous. Making specific rules is not hard. The NFL has rules for everything. The powers at be need to decide one way or the other so that specific rules can be created. But understand this, people will find a way to "game". Just like how companies like March now make 2500$ 4.5 power scopes for the new SR rules. If you limit mag length then people will put on cut rifled barrels with chambers to utilize whatever best bullet for mag length exists. They will make it as heavy as they can up to the limit. No matter what you do with the rules, there will always be a best possible configuration.

And the best shooter will still win!

 

[XTR]

This is ridiculous. Making specific rules is not hard. ...

Again, there is nothing ridiculous about this class. This happened because a few people at the NRA were trying to come up with a way to get more people on the line at matches (good thing)

Probably having some idea that the Ar-15 platform is the highest selling rifle in the US they said.."hmmm, how can we get more people with AR15s to come shoot in matches?"

"We need to make it easy."

1. make a class where pretty much any off the shelf configured AR legal
2. put it on a bipod
3. let um use a rear bag
4. Shoot on the HP target, not the F class target
5. call it "tactical"

Write up some basig draft rules and trow it at the wall and see what we get for feedback in 3 yrs. That's it.

This is not a serious competitive class as it stands today. It may be one day, but right now it's a participation leader.

 

[_Raining]

Again, there is nothing ridiculous about this class. This happened because a few people at the NRA were trying to come up with a way to get more people on the line at matches (good thing)

Probably having some idea that the Ar-15 platform is the highest selling rifle in the US they said.."hmmm, how can we get more people with AR15s to come shoot in matches?"

"We need to make it easy."

1. make a class where pretty much any off the shelf configured AR legal
2. put it on a bipod
3. let um use a rear bag
4. Shoot on the HP target, not the F class target
5. call it "tactical"

Write up some basig draft rules and trow it at the wall and see what we get for feedback in 3 yrs. That's it.

This is not a serious competitive class as it stands today. It may be one day, but right now it's a participation leader.

I get that it is provisional but it is still vague and that appears to be causing issues. You can be specific and still include everyone. If you want to include everyone then it should have said:
You can use a standard magazine, magazine with a special follower or a sled. You will single feed 1 at a time for safety reasons.
Rounds can be of any length.
Muzzle brakes are allowed.
Scopes can be of any magnification.
Barrels can be of any length.
No weight limit.
No trigger pull limit.

The above rules would be more inclusive then what they currently are. The fact that any caliber for ar 15 or ar 10 is allowed already is a bigger difference then allowing >15 power or longer COAL ammo. If you went to a public range and went up to the "everyday normal guy with an AR", I bet a ton of them would not be allowed due to a muzzle brake, suppressor, high power scope (5-25/6-24 etc are not uncommon at all), less than 4.5 lb trigger, and > 20" barrel.

 

[XTR]

I get that it is provisional but it is still vague and that appears to be causing issues. You can be specific and still include everyone. If you want to include everyone then it should have said:
You can use a standard magazine, magazine with a special follower or a sled. You will single feed 1 at a time for safety reasons.
Rounds can be of any length.
Muzzle brakes are allowed.
Scopes can be of any magnification.
Barrels can be of any length.
No weight limit.
No trigger pull limit.

The above rules would be more inclusive then what they currently are. The fact that any caliber for ar 15 or ar 10 is allowed already is a bigger difference then allowing >15 power or longer COAL ammo. If you went to a public range and went up to the "everyday normal guy with an AR", I bet a ton of them would not be allowed due to a muzzle brake, suppressor, high power scope (5-25/6-24 etc are not uncommon at all), less than 4.5 lb trigger, and > 20" barrel.

Write up your suggestions and send them to the HP committee

 

[_Raining]

Write up your suggestions and send them to the HP committee

I have no suggestions because it is a catch 22 in my eyes. The reason is because as soon as you make it official and a part of nationals etc then the everyday guy is gone and all you have left is people gaming. I am not opposed to gaming, I do it with F Open and F TR but again, the normal guy will be pushed out. Competition and "every day normal guys" just don't go together. If that "every day normal guy" is competitive then he will be disappointed getting beat by people spending 8000$ on a setup to get as close to the edge of what is allowed without going over it and if that "every day normal guy" is not competitive and just wants to have fun shooting then he can do that at the range without paying competition entry fees.

 

[kzin]

Again, there is nothing ridiculous about this class. This happened because a few people at the NRA were trying to come up with a way to get more people on the line at matches (good thing)

Probably having some idea that the Ar-15 platform is the highest selling rifle in the US they said.."hmmm, how can we get more people with AR15s to come shoot in matches?"

"We need to make it easy."

1. make a class where pretty much any off the shelf configured AR legal
2. put it on a bipod
3. let um use a rear bag
4. Shoot on the HP target, not the F class target
5. call it "tactical"

Write up some basig draft rules and trow it at the wall and see what we get for feedback in 3 yrs. That's it.

This is not a serious competitive class as it stands today. It may be one day, but right now it's a participation leader.

You are very generous.
Smells like a committee who argued back and forth until they had to stop and publish something unfinished to me.

 

[XTR]

You are very generous.
Smells like a committee who argued back and forth until they had to stop and publish something unfinished to me.

Totally plausible scenario.

 

[kzin]

Well kzin, I have read this thread over several times, also have done the same with the rules, or what I may call rules. Seems to me that actually nobody truly knows the answer, hence the confusion on my part. So I'll ask this since I have never paid attention to SR, what length ammunition are they shooting, mag length or longer??

Don Dunlap

Ok, sorry, if you're confused you're mostly caught up with the thread.
Abandon hope of not being confused and you're fully up to speed.

 

[tflorman]

I guess I don't see what is so vague about the rules (at least where ammo and magazines are concerned). It says you have to use a regular magazine. That's pretty cut and dry. There is no mention of the ammo having to be mag length... only that it must be .223 rem/5.56 NATO or .308win / 7.62 NATO. There is no mention of having to load the ammo into the chamber from the magazine. When there is no rule overriding another rule, then the first rule about single loading applies right? Seems clear enough to me. Sure, the rulebook could and perhaps should be rewritten to be more precise in their language, but we've gotten by with the definitions of Service Rifle, Any Rifle, Match Rifle, FTR and F-open rifles for a quite a while so I don't see why is this "tactical rifle" category such a hard thing to understand? AR10/AR15 style rifles with scopes up to 15 power and plain old bipods (not the uber specialized ones used in F-Class)....Easy peasy.

If an when the rules are formalized and events are scheduled at the National Matches, then we can argue the minutia of what is legal and what isn't, but for now... if folks are shooting in that class, paying their match fees, and having fun doing it... AMEN!

 

[kzin]

I guess I don't see what is so vague about the rules (at least where ammo and magazines are concerned). It says you have to use a regular magazine. That's pretty cut and dry. There is no mention of the ammo having to be mag length... only that it must be .223 rem/5.56 NATO or .308win / 7.62 NATO. There is no mention of having to load the ammo into the chamber from the magazine. When there is no rule overriding another rule, then the first rule about single loading applies right? Seems clear enough to me. Sure, the rulebook could and perhaps should be rewritten to be more precise in their language, but we've gotten by with the definitions of Service Rifle, Any Rifle, Match Rifle, FTR and F-open rifles for a quite a while so I don't see why is this "tactical rifle" category such a hard thing to understand? AR10/AR15 style rifles with scopes up to 15 power and plain old bipods (not the uber specialized ones used in F-Class)....Easy peasy.

If an when the rules are formalized and events are scheduled at the National Matches, then we can argue the minutia of what is legal and what isn't, but for now... if folks are shooting in that class, paying their match fees, and having fun doing it... AMEN!

What then is the POINT of no sleds?
Just to make people single load in a less comfortable manner?
I f-cking hope not.

 

[tflorman]

I believe the point is allow inexperienced folks to show up with run o' mill AR's and gear and be able to reasonably compete against others who show up with similar gear. I'm not sure about you, but i don't know anyone who owns a sled that isn't already competing in high power. The ultimate point in my opinion is for the tactical class to become a "gateway drug", thus enticing new shooters to "run whatcha brung" and give the rest of us more experienced folk the chance to show the "noobs" why high power is fun and that they should stick with it and perhaps a try a few other things like f-class or sling shooting.

Besides, how uncomfortable is it really to nudge a round into the chamber with a finger versus donning a heavy shooting coat, cinching a sling onto your support arm while your hand falls asleep...all while laying in that same heavy coat out in the hot sun? If Highpower were all about comfort, there would only be bench rest shooters and covered shooting points. We can all argue about whether single loading is safe or stupid, but presently, that's the rule and nothing in the tactical class description overrides that rule.

 

[kzin]

So the combination of rules exists for the benefit of a first timer who needs to be allowed to single load his hand loaded over-length rounds but shouldn't be forced to spend the time and money to order a sled on the internet to have the same tiny advantage as those who already have sleds. Much more to the point would be limiting everybody in the class to shooting mag-length ammo through the mag because THAT is what the beginner is really used to doing.

I'm not upset over not being able to use a sled. I am disturbed by the complete pointlessness of the situation and even more by the number of shooters who easily accept the literal rules with apparently zero concern that they make no sense. Especially since the non-specific parts of the rule section make it very, very clear that there is one word that is supposed to make all the specifics make coherent sense - 'tactical'.

 

[anon]

I will say that anecdotal evidence so far says using the braille targets instead of the F-class targets is a BAD idea. We should not be hearing about cleans already.

Looking at this year's prone match braille target aggregate high scores so far

Jan any 600-31 sr 592-29 trar 598-41
Feb any 600-37 sr 579-24 trar 590-23
Mar any 600-36 sr 593-26 trar no shooter
Apr any 598-37 sr 592-23 trar 595-34
May any 593-18 sr 568-13 trar no shooter
Jun any 571-11 sr 591-21 trar 598-35
Jul any 590-29 sr 560-20 trar 594-29
Aug any 596-28 sr 589-19 trar 590-23
Sep any 600-42 sr 587-17 trar 596-33
Oct any 597-35 sr 582-20 trar 590-23

this year's XTC 300RF and 600SF high scores

Jan 300RF 198-4 600SF 192-2
Feb rain cancelled
Mar 300RF 200-9 600SF 198-9
Apr 300RF 199-5 600SF 190-3
May 300RF 199-3 600SF 194-5
Jun 300RF 198-6 600SF 192-10
Jul 300RF 200-11 600SF 198-13
Aug no match
Sep 300RF 200-11 600SF 197-5
Oct 300RF 199-7 600SF 193-6

If you're going to pick on the braille target, it is the accomplished any shooters that tear up the 10 and X rings.

There were 16 200s shot by F-Class shooters in the Aug prone match alone. The F-Class target has gotten way too large, at least for the bunch of national class shooters found at Bayou.

Let this class remain a place where someone that has bought a rifle, with no consideration of it fitting into a formula based class, can just shoot.

 

[flintcreek6412]

I guess I don't see what is so vague about the rules (at least where ammo and magazines are concerned). It says you have to use a regular magazine. That's pretty cut and dry. There is no mention of the ammo having to be mag length... only that it must be .223 rem/5.56 NATO or .308win / 7.62 NATO. There is no mention of having to load the ammo into the chamber from the magazine. When there is no rule overriding another rule, then the first rule about single loading applies right? Seems clear enough to me. Sure, the rulebook could and perhaps should be rewritten to be more precise in their language, but we've gotten by with the definitions of Service Rifle, Any Rifle, Match Rifle, FTR and F-open rifles for a quite a while so I don't see why is this "tactical rifle" category such a hard thing to understand? AR10/AR15 style rifles with scopes up to 15 power and plain old bipods (not the uber specialized ones used in F-Class)....Easy peasy.

If an when the rules are formalized and events are scheduled at the National Matches, then we can argue the minutia of what is legal and what isn't, but for now... if folks are shooting in that class, paying their match fees, and having fun doing it... AMEN!

Sorry but that is not accurate. From the HP rules:

These rifles will be of the “AR-Platform” variety, semi-automatic, chambered in any caliber from .223 cal./5.56mm up to and including .308 cal./7.62mm.

Basically any caliber between the 2 is OK. I'm guessing you will see some .260, 6.5 creedmore and .243 being used if it's ever official.

I will probably be the only one to interpret the rules as saying the rounds must be mag length and mag fed purely based upon the many instances they state about this being based on tactical rifles. You will never see military or LE single feed in a "tactical application". They will all be mag fed otherwise they would carry H&R single shots(yes that's a joke).

I will highlight some points from the rules that lead me to this believe. But yes it is vague IMO. We need to look at the intent of this class and they are very specific that this is not another F class event.

Conceptually, this new NRA Mid-Range (Prone) Tactical Rifle (AR) program will be designed to provide civilian, military, and police shooters with an opportunity to shoot NRA Mid-Range Prone competition along-side of other Mid-Range Prone shooters in matches using semi-automatic rifles built on an “AR-Platform” and equipment generally thought of as being “tactical” in design and use. These rifles will be configured so as to replicate as closely as possible the tactical rifles (semi-automatic) and equipment used by the United States Military and America’s Law Enforcement Community in “mid-range” tactical applications. These semi-automatic rifles will be more “off the rack” or “stock” than “competition” in nature. They will be more of a “tactical design” than “match design” and therefore less expensive than the vast majority of mid-range prone rifles currently in use.

This new style of competition is designed to be more “tactical” in spirit and for that reason equipment normally found in other types of High Power Rifle Competition such as Match Rifle, Palma Rifle and F-Class Rifle will not be permitted. In order to understand the spirit of this new sport one might think of this sport as “prone Service Rifle with a bipod and a scope”. This IS NOT designed as another version of F-Class competition.

The purple highlight would be the only door to open allowing single feed longer than mag length IMO.

These are just my thoughts based upon intent of the class that needs to be cleaned up if it get adopted.

 

[Bamban]

The sled has no competitive advantage whatsover over a regular magasine when single loading in slow fire. Just convenience.