Details on AR Tactical in NRA High Power (Midrange)

[Turbulent Turtle]

So no one that has ever worked the pits in f-open has ever had a shooter that puts his shot one paper with in few seconds of you getting the target up?
I'll give you a safety news flash, his gun was loaded, aimed at your position, with no safety and probably a 1oz trigger: All while you were fully extended lifting that target into position.
Makes that 4.5# trigger in the loaded Ar15 seem a whole lot more safe.

And your point is?

I have pulled a couple of targets in F-Class. I've only ever been "cautious" on the first couple of rounds especially from a new shooter. Once the shooter is on target, I'm not worried. I like it when an F-class shooter sends the next round really quickly, this way I spend less time waiting for it.

I've also shot SR and other disciplines. I feel a whole lot safer in the pits pulling for a seasoned F-classer (the kind who would have the next round cued up waiting for my pit service) than pulling XTC, 4.5# notwithstanding.

 

[Andy Legg]

My 15 year Old(Dylan) & I shot AR-Tac again today at Golden Triangle Gun Club in Beaumont(TX) in an Unregistered Match. It was Great Fun & Great Group to Shoot with!

This was Dylan's 1st Match to shoot without any coaching. The 3rd Match he certainly had to make some adjustments due to changing conditions(Wind + Sunlight(Mirage making Target Move-Up))...but It was an awesome learning experience for him.

After giving the Target Size used in AR-Tac additional thought....I think the 2 MOA Targets are probably good for this class. Or at least for Dylan & myself with our 1-2 MOA AR's & 77 grain SMK's learning to read wind. No Cleans Today.....best I could muster with the Palmetto State Armory AR w/Nikon P223 BDC 600 (3-9) today was a 198-6x.

The 4.5# Triggers make it pretty interesting as well...but not unsafe(especially single feeding in Slow-Fire Prone).

We look forward to shooting with the folks at GTGC again. They were super supportive of the young shooter!! Afterwards, we followed the group over to the near-by Burger Depot(YUMMY!) for an Unofficial Debriefing of sorts.

All-n-All...A Great Day spent with some Great Folks

 

[SWRichmond]

. Its everything I can do to put an AR together that will shoot MOA accuracy

Barrel quality?

I put together a stock whos-ever brand lower, a 4.5# Geiselle trigger, 20" White Oak service rifle barrel, a Geiselle handguard and a stock bolt and carrier. Added a few tungsten weights to the buffer, used a stock spring. Thing shoots fantastic and throws brass on a happy little pile at 4 o'clock. Shoots well under a minute with several different bullets / handloads. Reliably spanks 2moa steel at 600 yds with handloads and with at least 2 different non-match factory loads. Weighs 12# with the 4X scope. Sling swivel spud at 13+/- 0.5" forward of the mag well doubles as bipod mount. Can use it for service rifle, mid range prone and tactical. Using processed LC mil brass. Zeroes are different sling and bipod.

I have just over a grand in it not including the scope. Built the whole thing for cheaper than an F class scope. I couldn't be happier.

2moa targets are the intent of tactical class. Others can do the equipment race thing. I'm gonna shoot rifle.

 

[Jacob.A]

I just don't know how many 1/2 Minute AR's are really out there though. Its everything I can do to put an AR together that will shoot MOA accuracy.

I'm not sure how, my AR with a Geissele SSA (excellent, but deliberately not a match trigger), $99 Ballistic Advantage barrel, and Toolcraft BCG ($70-80 or so on sale) can do half minute with handloads fairly easily - without some of the premium stuff on there that doesn't impact accuracy (Geissele Mk8 rail, Geissele charging handle, cerakote, etc), that could have been a $700 rifle. With cheap factory match ammo 1 MOA or better isn't a big challenge (think PPU Match for $12/box or less). You shouldn't be having a hard time getting better than 1 MOA with handloads unless you're using like $50 barrels.

 

[Andy Legg]

I have shot an occasional 3-5 shot 1/2 MOA Group with an AR.....its the 20 shot strings @ 600 yds. that seem to be less frequent(for me at least).

Has anyone ever scored 200-20x or 600-60x in NRA Mid-Range AR Tactical(Rule 23)?

 

[JCUtah]

I have shot an occasional 3-5 shot 1/2 MOA Group with an AR.....its the 20 shot strings @ 600 yds. that seem to be less frequent(for me at least).

Has anyone ever scored 200-20x or 600-60x in NRA Mid-Range AR Tactical(Rule 23)?

At my club no. Seen 200's and a 600. But not a clean x count.

 

[GSS]

I think you and the NRA are overthinking this. This should be an entry-level class for new people to come out and shoot something they already have laying around.

The NRA trying to define "tactical" is just dumb. I'd say the restrictions on scope power, trigger weight, and overall weight should also be removed so that literally ANYONE can play.

The MR1 target is HUGE, any one with halfway decent equipment/ammo and a reasonable amount of skill should be able to clean it in short order from a bipod with a scope, regardless of the cartridge they are using. Sling shooters do it pretty regularly with both scopes and irons. Service rifle shooters do it fairly often now too with 4.5x scopes.

Hopefully the people trying this out will quickly see how easy it is, and want to move to one of the more challenging disciplines, either sling or F-class.

Gaming this particular class is just silly, but I have no doubt some will do it anyways.
It'd be like being the champion of bowling with the bumper rails up.

I just read this whole thread.
( we want to welcome people in this class into our 2019 State Mid Range Prone Championship but aren't sure what to do with them for awards )

Being a service rifle shooter that typically shoots 600 yard scores with a sling and 4.5x scope in the high 190's with solid X counts ( Not uncommon for a group of us in my area and nationally )

I certainly hope it helps draw new people to shooting Mid Range Prone matches.

I agree with Erik's point above 100%.
I edited in the bold and underlines in the quoted post above with the statements I agree with the most.

I also agree with the text I have copied in below from another posts in this thread;

---- quote ----


Again, there is nothing ridiculous about this class. This happened because a few people at the NRA were trying to come up with a way to get more people on the line at matches (good thing)

Probably having some idea that the Ar-15 platform is the highest selling rifle in the US they said.."hmmm, how can we get more people with AR15s to come shoot in matches?"

"We need to make it easy."

1. make a class where pretty much any off the shelf configured AR legal
2. put it on a bipod
3. let um use a rear bag
4. Shoot on the HP target, not the F class target
5. call it "tactical"

Write up some basic draft rules and trow it at the wall and see what we get for feedback in 3 yrs. That's it.
This is not a serious competitive class as it stands today. It may be one day, but right now it's a participation leader.

 

[Mr. Ten-X]

Don't ask a person that has never actually fired a class or a division for expert opinion.

This is what needs to change before the class dies. What they are running now is NOT what was presented to Walt in late 2013. The HP Committee in their infinite wisdom wanted to become Liberal (all-inclusive) and decided to allow a rifle platform (AR10) that represents about 1-2% of the AR shooters have a distinct and unfair advantage over the AR15's. AR10 shooters with their 6XC, 6Creed, 6.5Creed, 7/8 & 6.5x308 can go pound sand. How bow dah?

_____________________________________

As originally envisioned, the NRA Mid-Range Tactical game was intended as a means to bring the many ”America’s Rifles” out of the safes and onto the shooting ranges across the US. There were countless thousands and thousands of AR15 rifle owners that never would consider shooting 3-gun, run-and-gun events with their basic AR15. There really was nothing for them that existed. That is why the Mid-Range Tactical game was presented to the NRA HP Committee. A game where the average AR15 owner could compete using a basic rifle with other basic equipment, using factory ammunition and with minimal rules to keep everyone on equal footing.

Unfortunately, that is not how the game has been played and as a result, the numbers of shooters entering the events has suffered. The rules need to change.

It is hard to start a match for the most widely owned rifle in the country (basic AR15) when that very rifle is put at a severe disadvantage by the rules, straight out of the gate. The event was never intended to be an “AR Platform” game and that part needs an immediate change. I can assure you that a hard-shooting AR10 in one of the screaming 6mm, 6.5mm and 7mm cartridges has a very distinct ballistic advantage over a basic .223/5.56 cartridge and it will win every time. The game was envisioned as an “AR15” game in .223/5.56 caliber and it needs to stay that way. AR15’s outnumber AR10’s by at least 50:1 so why give the AR10 an advantage? Doing so tells the AR15 owners to stay home. This was ill-advised. Restrict the game to AR15’s with barrels of 16-20” length using the unmodified .223/5.56 cartridge.

The game was envisioned to be fired with “magazine length” ammunition and for a reason. Many people that would come to play this game do not handload. But, plenty of match grade ammunition exists with 68/69 or 75/77 grain bullets that would be competitive if the magazine-length rule were adhered to. This rule keeps the game more on an even keel whether you handload or not.

The proposed rules stated (originally) that an optical device of a maximum of 10X was specifically put in so that everyday 3-9X scopes would not be at a severe disadvantage. The 3-9X scope is by far the most widely sold and owned optic in the country. Again, the whole purpose of the exercise is to get Joe Shooter to the range cheaply and not be at a severe disadvantage with “average equipment”. This one is pretty simple.

Use of an SLED for slow-fire. By all means, ALLOW them. There is no sound reason not to. It is an inexpensive device, available to anyone. Less damage to the bullet tips upon closing of the bolt and faster shooting when pit service allows. Whomever made them illegal has never fired an AR15 in slow-fire from a bag and bipod.

These simple rule changes will assist in growth of the game given proper promotion. What is more is that Manufacturers need to be actively pursued to participate in this from a promotional standpoint. It “should” be the single largest game that NRA offers in Highpower if the rules reflect parity for the average shooter. What it does is separate the men from the boys based upon the ability to shoot the score.

 

[Andy Legg]

I agree with Mr.Ten-X

 

[Nature Boy]

I have an AR in the safe that I don’t shoot, a Leupold LRT 4.5-14 not attached to anything and an Atlas bipod collecting dust.

The only thing causing me to pause is the potential fee from the lawyer I’d need to hire to interpret the rules And keep him on retainer to represent me during any disputes

Seriously though, it does sound like fun and could potentially fullfill the NRA’s goal of bringing new shooters to the range

 

[Andy Legg]

It is FUN! My son & I have had a blast so far. Looking forward to seeing tournaments with more participation.

Using a 16" 5.56 NATO with 77 SMK we have both just begun to learn about reading the changing wind/weather conditions.

Nature Boy....give it a try!

 

[Bamban]

If you guys were shooting a dot reticle, what would you consider an optimum size at max power? 1/2, 1/4, 3/8?

 

[Andy Legg]

I don't know. Good Question on the Dot Reticle. I'm curious as well?

We're using an SWFA 10x w/Mil-Quad reticle on one AR & a Nikon P233 3-9 BDC 600 on the other for now.

The SWFA is seems easier to hold over for wind. The Nikon P223 does not have sub-tensions for wind.

I understand the 15x Rule for Optics is to make more AR's legal to compete. For now the 10x seems fine for 600 yds(plus we're using what we already had).

I would not recommend buying anything special until the rules are no longer provisional.

 

[GSS]

It is FUN! My son & I have had a blast so far. Looking forward to seeing tournaments with more participation.

Using a 16" 5.56 NATO with 77 SMK we have both just begun to learn about reading the changing wind/weather conditions.

Nature Boy....give it a try!

Very Happy to hear you and your son are participating and having a blast. That is an awesome Father / Son thing to do.

Can I ask,
Are you shooting all the way back to 600 yards with the 16" barrel and 77's?

If yes, how is it working ?
Are you able to keep all shots in the black or on paper?

 

[GSS]

Question for people shooting these rifles in organized matches
Do the ranges you shoot at put any restrictions on minimum barrel length or projectile weight for these rifles to shoot 500 or 600 yards?

Say, .223/5.56 Cal
18" 1x9 or 1x10 twist shooting 69grain ammo 500 yards ok? 600 yards ok?

16" 1x9 or 1x10 twist shooting 69grain ammo 500 yards ok? 600 yards ok?

16" 1x9 or 1x10 twist shooting 55 or 62 grain surplus ammo 500 yards ok? 600 yards ok?

Shorter than 16" barrel shooting 69grain ammo 500 yards ok? 600 yards ok?

Shorter than 16" barrel shooting 55 or 62 grain surplus ammo 500 yards ok? 600 yards ok?

 

[Monte F]

Question for people shooting these rifles in organized matches
Do the ranges you shoot at put any restrictions on minimum barrel length or projectile weight for these rifles to shoot 500 or 600 yards?

Say,
18" 1x9 or 1x10 twist shooting 69grain ammo 500 yards ok? 600 yards ok?

16" 1x9 or 1x10 twist shooting 69grain ammo 500 yards ok? 600 yards ok?

16" 1x9 or 1x10 twist shooting 55 or 62 grain surplus ammo 500 yards ok? 600 yards ok?

Shorter than 16" barrel shooting 69grain ammo 500 yards ok? 600 yards ok?

Shorter than 16" barrel shooting 55 or 62 grain surplus ammo 500 yards ok? 600 yards ok?

At our matches we do not have any special restrictions on minimums, only the rule stated maximums. However if a shooter can not keep the bullet stable at 600 yds. (not tumbling/keyhole) we pull them off the line. Has not been a problem so far as most shoot some sort of 6mm. (.243 in my case).

 

[Andy Legg]

Question for people shooting these rifles in organized matches
Do the ranges you shoot at put any restrictions on minimum barrel length or projectile weight for these rifles to shoot 500 or 600 yards?

Say, .223/5.56 Cal
18" 1x9 or 1x10 twist shooting 69grain ammo 500 yards ok? 600 yards ok?

16" 1x9 or 1x10 twist shooting 69grain ammo 500 yards ok? 600 yards ok?

16" 1x9 or 1x10 twist shooting 55 or 62 grain surplus ammo 500 yards ok? 600 yards ok?

Shorter than 16" barrel shooting 69grain ammo 500 yards ok? 600 yards ok?

Shorter than 16" barrel shooting 55 or 62 grain surplus ammo 500 yards ok? 600 yards ok?

No issues what so ever staying on target @ 600 yards shooting the 77 grain SMK with the 16" Barrel(MV=2532 fps).

At his first uncoached competition last month.....Dylan(my son) shot 188-4, 187-2 & 175-0(Total 550-6) . During the last match conditions(Wind & Sun/Mirage) significantly changed. It was a VERY MUCH a learning experience for him....The kind you learn by doing not being told what to do. It took a minute for the training to kick-in & he dropped about 8-10 points before getting the new conditions sorted out(uncoached). His worst shot was a 7(still "In the Black").

The First time I shot the 16" at 600 yards was a month earlier. I shot a 190-7, 191-9 & 192-6(Total=573-22). Worst shot was a 7 due to mixed lot handloads. I too remained "In the Black". I won the 2nd Match 191-9 to 191-8.

As a side note...the difference in handload Velocities(at Target) was clearly visible with the Shot Marker Targets.....apparently I too learned something.

Bayou Rifles does restrict 55 grain .223 to 300 yards or less(see below).

Ammunition: No bullet with a diameter greater than .35 will be allowed. 55 grain .223 is not permitted past 300 yards. Tracer, incendiaries, or armor piercing ammo is not permitted. Cartridges based on the 50 BMG are not permitted. Bullets must remain supersonic at the target. The match director will have right to remove the competitor/ammunition from the firing line if the bullet is not supersonic at the target. Any ammo that repeatedly blows primers or splits cases will be ruled defective or unsafe and the competitor/ammunition will be removed from the firing line.

 

[GSS]

Thanks Andy, Sounds like your combo is working great out to 600 yards for you and your son. That is awesome.

Anyone else shoot AR in 223 / 5.56 with a 16" or shorter barrel at 500 or 600 yards?

If yes I'm interested to hear how well it did staying on paper and what was used for ammo

Thanks All

 

[r bose]

No issues what so ever staying on target @ 600 yards shooting the 77 grain SMK with the 16" Barrel(MV=2532 fps).

At his first uncoached competition last month.....Dylan(my son) shot 188-4, 187-2 & 175-0(Total 550-6) . During the last match conditions(Wind & Sun/Mirage) significantly changed. It was a VERY MUCH a learning experience for him....The kind you learn by doing not being told what to do. It took a minute for the training to kick-in & he dropped about 8-10 points before getting the new conditions sorted out(uncoached). His worst shot was a 7(still "In the Black").

The First time I shot the 16" at 600 yards was a month earlier. I shot a 190-7, 191-9 & 192-6(Total=573-22). Worst shot was a 7 due to mixed lot handloads. I too remained "In the Black". I won the 2nd Match 191-9 to 191-8.

As a side note...the difference in handload Velocities(at Target) was clearly visible with the Shot Marker Targets.....apparently I too learned something.

Bayou Rifles does restrict 55 grain .223 to 300 yards or less(see below).

Ammunition: No bullet with a diameter greater than .35 will be allowed. 55 grain .223 is not permitted past 300 yards. Tracer, incendiaries, or armor piercing ammo is not permitted. Cartridges based on the 50 BMG are not permitted. Bullets must remain supersonic at the target. The match director will have right to remove the competitor/ammunition from the firing line if the bullet is not supersonic at the target. Any ammo that repeatedly blows primers or splits cases will be ruled defective or unsafe and the competitor/ammunition will be removed from the firing line.

Reading thru this entire thread I believe the spirit of this new class is to attract new shooters but several things need to be cleared up in the rules.

!. Single loading only. It's a safety issue especially with new shooters (who cares from what type of mag)

2. Just about EVERY AR I see at a public range has a brake on it. NRA needs to legalize them to draw in shooters

3. I've read no where about a MINIMUM bullet weight for 223/5.56 except the local rule at Bayou Rifles Club. So what do you do with a new shooter who shows up with 55g ball to shoot 600 yds? On a non windy day, much less a windy day, this could be a very bad idea. NRA needs to make a min weight (perhaps 77g for those insisting on mag feeding) in the rules. And this is why I'd be more inclined to allow hand loaded 80 class bullets single loaded.

4. TACTICAL to me means short barrel, lightweight rifle used in close quarters combat/defense, not made to shoot past 200-250 yds with ball/issue ammo. Longer barrels should be allowed because I can't imagine them having any advantage. Example, my old space gun that is now obsolete in XTC matches can wear a 15x scope and be used in tactical matches

 

[GSS]

Reading thru this entire thread I believe the spirit of this new class is to attract new shooters but several things need to be cleared up in the rules.

!. Single loading only. It's a safety issue especially with new shooters (who cares from what type of mag)

2. Just about EVERY AR I see at a public range has a brake on it. NRA needs to legalize them to draw in shooters

3. I've read no where about a MINIMUM bullet weight for 223/5.56 except the local rule at Bayou Rifles Club. So what do you do with a new shooter who shows up with 55g ball to shoot 600 yds? On a non windy day, much less a windy day, this could be a very bad idea. NRA needs to make a min weight (perhaps 77g for those insisting on mag feeding) in the rules. And this is why I'd be more inclined to allow hand loaded 80 class bullets single loaded.

4. TACTICAL to me means short barrel, lightweight rifle used in close quarters combat/defense, not made to shoot past 200-250 yds with ball/issue ammo. Longer barrels should be allowed because I can't imagine them having any advantage. Example, my old space gun that is now obsolete in XTC matches can wear a 15x scope and be used in tactical matches

Re
2. Muzzle brakes are frowned upon at our 300/500/600 prone matches consisting of Match, Palma, F Class and FTR rifles.
When someone does show up with a brake we put them a few firing points down because nobody wants to be right beside the blast.
Nobody has brakes in out XTC Match Rifle / Service Rifle

3. & 4 Individual Range Safety rules will come into play here.

I'm still hoping to have someone chime in that has used a 16" or shorter 223 / 5.56 at 300, 500 600 yards to see how it went for them holding paper / black.

This thread has a lot of replies and good info in it but leaves me wondering how many in the thread shoot in this class or run matches that have people shooting this class.

Note:
I'm all for trying things that grow any shooting sport.
As long as within reason it doesn't TOTALLY derail / change the discipline.

It's obvious the NRA didn't pull off this Perfectly but I think it was a good thing for them to try