Details on AR Tactical in NRA High Power (Midrange)

[Turbulent Turtle]

Should this class be limited to ARs at all?

How about other military style semi's?

If ARs, what exactly counts?

The intent of the rule is Service Rifle with a bipod and a scope.

Quote:

"These rifles will be of the “AR-Platform” variety, semi-automatic, chambered


in any caliber from .223 cal./5.56mm up to and including .308 cal./7.62mm."

I would say AR-15s and AR-10s or their non-ArmaLite equivalent.

The other specs are in the rules.

 

[kzin]

The intent of the rule is Service Rifle with a bipod and a scope.

Quote:

"These rifles will be of the “AR-Platform” variety, semi-automatic, chambered


in any caliber from .223 cal./5.56mm up to and including .308 cal./7.62mm."

No argument on what it is.
We were also suggesting changes.
The 'service rifle' in that context doesn't HAVE to mean m16/m110 or even US

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

The rules state that a mag must be "attached", they don't say that you must feed rounds from it. This is only one of the places where the rules for this new class are very nebulous.

(snip)

FWIW - Denys, in looking through the Rulebook, I found in that section 3.1c states that a piston-based system can be used; it doesn't specifically have to be the Stoner-type gas system.

Yeah, I know. I just like to tease people who use piston-ARs. They're not real shooters.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

No argument on what it is.
We were also suggesting changes.
The 'service rifle' in that context doesn't HAVE to mean m16/m110 or even US

Go ahead, bring your Mini-14. Good luck hitting anywhere near the target at 600 yards.

 

[kzin]

Go ahead, bring your Mini-14. Good luck hitting anywhere near the target at 600 yards.

Actually somebody on another forum claiming his mini could 'shoot with any AR' was on my mind.
M1A? DM type version?
SCAR?
416?

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Actually somebody on another forum claiming his mini could 'shoot with any AR' was on my mind.
M1A? DM type version?
SCAR?
416?

I was thinking SCAR Heavy and sure, HK416. The "intent" is confusing. They want Service Rifle on bipod with a scope, yet they mention AR-Platform. I should think anything that currently qualifies for SR would be welcome to this classification; I'm sure some .mill or Alphabet soup agency or PD is using the ones you listed.

 

[SWRichmond]

Do they really want you removing an empty mag, putting a single round in a mag, and inserting the mag for each shot, while you're on the rifle?

Saying "factory ammo" makes it a money game. I think the intent is to get out more shooters, not to complain about the rules so our egos can be inflated by winning. Some people cant have fun unless they're winning. New classes are experimental.

Special note to new shooters: you are shooting for pleasure, and to improve your rifle skills. You are competing against your own previous score, to prove to yourself you can learn and improve. You can compete with the fighter-pilot egos later if you choose to. At first, concentrate on your own skill improvement. Become a better rifleman.

 

[Albany Mountain]

The rules for Tactical Rifle should require feeding from the mag, i.e. 5 to 10 rounds in the mag. Can't be a safety factor since rapid fire strings are used in NRA xcourse matches. Scores may be higher since you are not taking your cheek off the stock for each shot so each shot is more consistent.

Rapid fire is not slow fire. Every one on the planet showing slow fire loads one round at a time. I feel for safety reasons that if sometimes you can load the mag for slow fire (Tactical AR) and sometimes you can't (NRA Slow Fire XTC). you will have a safety issue sometime.

Its not worth the risk when you need to learn to place a round in the chamber with mag attached.

 

[Warren Dean]

 

[Albany Mountain]

I totally disagree. If they insist on a regular magazine, then you must feed from the mag. If you do not, you can use non mag-length ammo so why the need for the real magazine? You can't use a follower because that is not a regular magazine.

I will disagree totally with this mindset. Use what ammo you want. You can't load a AR mag slowfire like you can a M1A or M14.

 

[Albany Mountain]

Yes, a shooter can cheat with long loaded ammunition. But in my matches they will suffer the consequences if caught intentionally cheating. Heck why, those new short line .223 bullets are deadly accurate.
Steve Finnell
MCRC match director

Good points Steve, but AR shooters in XTC have the majority of the shooters using long ammo single loaded. It's the way the game is being played and everyone has the same advantage.

 

[Monte F]

We had six AR Tactical Prone shooters at last Saturdays 600 match in Reno. I believe all used something besides a .223 (myself .243) round loaded one at a time into the chamber with your little finger before hitting the bolt release. We do not check for mag length ammo as the rules do not specify such. I agree the rules are a little vague and need refinement. This is getting to be our most popular class at midrange now, took a couple of years for me to get more shooters to come over from our Short Range Tactical Rifle match I run for the club. All have a good time and we give out ribbons for awards in a separate class than sling and f-class.

 

[243Mendoza]

Rapid fire is not slow fire. Every one on the planet showing slow fire loads one round at a time. I feel for safety reasons that if sometimes you can load the mag for slow fire (Tactical AR) and sometimes you can't (NRA Slow Fire XTC). you will have a safety issue sometime.

Its not worth the risk when you need to learn to place a round in the chamber with mag attached.

What is the safety issue that concerns you? If xcourse users can mix rapids and slow with no safety concerns, I can't see the concern for mag feeding for slow fire.

 

[Ned Ludd]

The Course of Fire for NRA Mid Range Tactical Rifle (AR) does NOT indicate the type of fire (i.e. "slow" or "rapid"), only the distance and target to be used (Rule 7.20). This is where the whole problem resides, IMO. My understanding is that in this classification, matches are usually fired together with Conventional and/or F-Class shooters, and are typically prone slow-fire events. If so, the rules clearly state that only one round can be loaded at a time (Rule 10.1.6). However, that would change if a Mid Range Tactical Rifle (AR) was used during a rapid-fire course of fire, which, as far as I can tell, should be perfectly legal. I assume that that is the reason that slow vs rapid is not strictly specified, because both are possible options. So technically, it is the course of fire (slow vs rapid) that should dictate whether rounds are actually loaded one at a time, or more than one. Even then, the Slow Fire rule only states that "The cartridge shall be inserted in the magazine or chamber", it does not specify that you MUST feed from the mag. From this, I'd interpret Rule 3.3.3g that a magazine "must be used" to mean that a mag must be inserted in the mag-well, nothing more.

On the surface of things, that would seem straightforward enough, and is the format currently used with other High Power disciplines. However, it still leaves the other ammunition issues unaddressed (i.e. Mag-length only?, Commercial versus handloads?). My gut feeling is that they didn't specifically address these issues because it is almost impossible to do so in any coherent manner given the minimal caliber restrictions. Mag-length doesn't mean much when a variety of different calibers with loaded rounds of dramatically different lengths (and/or bullet lengths) can be used.

Unfortunately, that also leaves the question wide open IMO for those wishing to game the system and use long handloads with high BC bullets. There is nothing in the rules that specifically states that to be illegal, even though it clearly seems to be in violation of the intended spirit of the competition. For that reason, I can imagine that some Match Directors might not have a problem with long handloads, whereas others clearly do. Therefore, having the rules interpreted in different manners at different shooting venues is potentially a very big problem. Given that much of the intent of this classification seems to be the theme of "inclusion", perhaps the rules were specifically written in such a nebulous manner. Nonetheless, I think it will be important to rectify this rather fuzzy area in the rules as the sport grows, such that they are uniform AND uniformly-applied at different shooting venues.

 

[Dgd6mm]

Ned, I pulled this thread up hoping too get a better understanding of this class. I have the rules down loaded and I've read them, they are vague in some areas. I may have to ask my MD how he is letting this class run with his understanding (interpretation) of the rules. I for one do not believe in gaming a sport. This has been a good discussion with valuable insight. There are other threads in the archives prior to this class starting and others after it shortly got underway. I'd like to mix it up at 600, FTR .223 one month, then the next month AR .223. I do have a question about rear support, squeeze bag? Can you use the Game Changer bag from Armageddon?

Don Dunlap

 

[Albany Mountain]

What is the safety issue that concerns you? If xcourse users can mix rapids and slow with no safety concerns, I can't see the concern for mag feeding for slow fire.

1. You have one group single loading and another group using loaded magazines.
2. Today you have to shoot single load in an XTC match, tomorrow shoot from magazines in a Mid Range Match. The command unload is given.
3. Today you have to shoot single load in an XTC match, tomorrow shoot from magazines in a Mid Range Match. You grab a mag to start dry firing.
4. Today you have to shoot single load in an XTC match, tomorrow shoot from magazines in a Mid Range Match. Scorekeepers are safety officers by rule. Now they are faced with; all rounds fired? is the rifle loaded?

Consistency is the concern. Keep it all the same. It is not that big of an issue to increase the risk of having a loaded rifle. I have seen no incidents to date in slow fire because of the current rules. They don't need fixing.

 

[JCUtah]

Ned, I pulled this thread up hoping too get a better understanding of this class. I have the rules down loaded and I've read them, they are vague in some areas. I may have to ask my MD how he is letting this class run with his understanding (interpretation) of the rules. I for one do not believe in gaming a sport. This has been a good discussion with valuable insight. There are other threads in the archives prior to this class starting and others after it shortly got underway. I'd like to mix it up at 600, FTR .223 one month, then the next month AR .223. I do have a question about rear support, squeeze bag? Can you use the Game Changer bag from Armageddon?

Don Dunlap

That rule about ears on the bag...based on that I would ask you to not use that bag you mention unless you joined other group of modified shooters my club has. My cut off is does the bag have a rigid ear or device to hold the bag in place or is it more improvised? A soft bag/roll that could wrap the bottom of the stock like ears is ok, the shooter improvised by empting contents or has a soft device to accomplish this.

Lots of judgment calls in the division. But my goal is simple. Bring more rifle owners into the competition shooters circle. It's good for the person, club, all firearm owners and society I feel. So I make judgment calls with some flexibility and respect while trying to fulfill the intent of this match as the NRA outlined. Keep this in mind, the nra has not made this disipline offical. It was provisional for 3 years I believe. And we just completed the third year. I'm keeping it going at my club regardless of the nra.

 

[XTR]

"These rules should be “Provisional” to be revisited after three (3) years ofoperation; i.e., January of 2020- if approved...."

Nothing you do in this class counts. It is a funzy thing, no records. It's a bunny hill class. The AR platform is the best selling rifle in the US. The point is to get people who own them out on the range.




"As a practical matter, Match Directors wishing to provide this competitive shooting opportunity within their programs will simply integrate this riflewith others already provided for within their standard Mid-Range program."

Means you shoot the same course of fire as everyone else, and at mid range and that is all slow fire. It is not a part of XTC so there is no rapid fire stage. (unless you want one, in which case make it, because nobody cares, it's provisional)

This class is posted up as an idea. It's a concept that the MD can run with if he so desires to get people out on the range. You can write mag length in the program one week and take it out the next. This is a basic set up, don't get wrapped around the axle, just have fun. In a couple of yrs they will revisit and maybe look for comment.

 

[Dgd6mm]

That rule about ears on the bag...based on that I would ask you to not use that bag you mention unless you joined other group of modified shooters my club has. My cut off is does the bag have a rigid ear or device to hold the bag in place or is it more improvised? A soft bag/roll that could wrap the bottom of the stock like ears is ok, the shooter improvised by empting contents or has a soft device to accomplish this

Lots of judgment calls in the division. But my goal is simple. Bring more rifle owners into the competition shooters circle. It's good for the person, club, all firearm owners and society I feel. So I make judgment calls with some flexibility and respect while trying to fulfill the intent of this match as the NRA outlined. Keep this in mind, the nra has not made this disipline offical. It was provisional for 3 years I believe. And we just completed the third year. I'm keeping it going at my club regardless of the nra.

I have other squeeze bags, barrel type, sock filled with beads, etc...

 

[243Mendoza]

1. You have one group single loading and another group using loaded magazines.
2. Today you have to shoot single load in an XTC match, tomorrow shoot from magazines in a Mid Range Match. The command unload is given.
3. Today you have to shoot single load in an XTC match, tomorrow shoot from magazines in a Mid Range Match. You grab a mag to start dry firing.
4. Today you have to shoot single load in an XTC match, tomorrow shoot from magazines in a Mid Range Match. Scorekeepers are safety officers by rule. Now they are faced with; all rounds fired? is the rifle loaded?

Consistency is the concern. Keep it all the same. It is not that big of an issue to increase the risk of having a loaded rifle. I have seen no incidents to date in slow fire because of the current rules. They don't need fixing.

After a cease fire or end of string,shooter drops the mag, opens the bolt, inserts OBI. Score keeper verifies open bolt and OBI inserted. No problem. But current rules specifies single load of round. I am only debating allowing mag load for Tac category but that may be a 'bridge to far' for some.