The rules for Tactical Rifle should require feeding from the mag, i.e. 5 to 10 rounds in the mag. Can't be a safety factor since rapid fire strings are used in NRA xcourse matches. Scores may be higher since you are not taking your cheek off the stock for each shot so each shot is more consistent.
Details on AR Tactical in NRA High Power (Midrange)
- Thread starter Berger.Fan222
- Start date
The rules for Tactical Rifle should require feeding from the mag, i.e. 5 to 10 rounds in the mag. Can't be a safety factor since rapid fire strings are used in NRA xcourse matches. Scores may be higher since you are not taking your cheek off the stock for each shot so each shot is more consistent.
But this class is vehemently NOT f-class.
It's part of midrange prone, what most shooters call 'sling'.
You should be shooting with and against Any Rifle, Palma Rifle and Service Rifle shooters, not f-classers
I have an nra midrange prone(aka sling) classification working entirely from shooting this class(once)
I have a separate f-class classification.
DR_2297
Silver $$ Contributor
No artificially supported platform should be classified with sling shooters. I don’t care what target it is on. Two entirely different worlds.
I have laid down and shot my NM SR from a bipod @ 600 with mag length 200/300 ammo and it is Almost put you to sleep easy on the MR.
AR tactical should be its own classification and should not compete against sling shooters for the same awards.
I have laid down and shot my NM SR from a bipod @ 600 with mag length 200/300 ammo and it is Almost put you to sleep easy on the MR.
AR tactical should be its own classification and should not compete against sling shooters for the same awards.
For our club it has been going well. We have about a quarter of our shooters at each match shooting this. It is popular enough we are going to dedicate a championship to just this class for fun.
There is many reasons for its success. Part of the success may be my deviation of the rules. I know, it's meant to not be an equipment race. So I have 2 classes. The names of the classes have changed every month because we forget what we called it the month before. We have had outlaws vs lawman, super heros vs villains, boring vs modified and the rule breakers vs everyone else. Anyway, the crew that has a rifle that fits the rules has their scores in one pile. The other guys that put larger scopes, suppressors, heavy rigs, longer barrels and so on with their rifles compete against each other. Let's face it, some guys like to tinker outside the lines. Instead of fighting it I encourage it. No hiding mods and they are not hurting the other guys. Truth be told, most shooters fall in the hero, lawman, boring crowd.
We had a guy with the 224 valkyrie put up a 599 a month or so ago. Completely by the book rig.
It's been great. I have shot it when I felt like not shooting ftr. Very fun. And it has brought a new crowd to the matches and that new crowd has been fantastic.
Probably 95+% of shooters agree with you. But somehow the people at NRA who created this decided to clearly put it in prone(aka sling) and state clearly and redundantly that it is NOT f-class.
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
Let me just preface this by saying that the rules for this division were not very well written or thought out by the NRA. My intention was, and still is, to participate in this class and submit changes to the rules to the NRA as quickly as possible.
There are several things I see right now.
1- the issue of not allowing sleds and forcing people to load from a real magazine.
This class is supposed to be shot along side other High Power and F-Class competitors, using the same targets and course of fire. Prone is ALWAYS fired "with one round load..." So this means that Rule 23 shooters must insert a magazine with one round for each and every shot. I shot plenty of Service Rifle and a magazine follower was not the most dependable. A Bob Sled was. Changing a magazine for every round while prone, is not conducive to keeping you safe and in position.
On the other hand, using a sled allows people to cheat on ammo. We have already seen earlier on this thread where someone was using 80grainers in a 5.56/.223. That's not legal since it doesn't fit in a regular magazine (and I have not seen one of those tricked out mags that allows one to place a 80grainer-loaded cartridge in the mag, in years.)
I can see where you allow the use of a sled AND can enforce the mag-length cartridge rule by having the person load some rounds in a mag to check. ICFRA has similar rules for F-TR with unmodified .223 and .308.
Having people shoot from a magazine and others using one round load is going to be a nightmare for the match director. This is PRONE, not XTC.
2- The caliber selection.
One of the biggest differentiators between F-Open and F-TR is caliber. We've already had another thread where we discussed the impact of bipods vs front rests. When the conditions are benign or predictable, the point spread at the top end between F-TR and F-Open can be very small; throw in some wind and we see where people throwing bullets 400FPS+ faster than other people seem to get higher scores. Those slippery 7mm bullets with their high BCs slice right through the wind where the .308s get bounced around.
I'm a long time F-TR shooter and I coached an F-Open team at the Nationals. I observed the trajectory of those 7mm and I'm VERY familiar with the trajectory of a .308. The difference is very real.
I know the 6.5CM is being used by the folks for which this class is intended, but I know there is quite a difference between mag-length .308 and mag-length 6.5CM. And now we have even more exotic calibers being used like the .224 Valkyrie mentioned a few posts above. I am not aware of any agency, Alphabet Soup or Military, that uses the .224 Valkyrie in their rifles, but the way the rules are written, anything goes, as long as it fits in the magazine for that rifle.
I get that we want it inclusive but like anything else, this will evolve into an armaments race and cleans will become the norm using some of those fancy calibers. We will have to go to the F-class target soon enough.
Anyways, those are some of my thoughts and that's why I'm all set to try this out at the next MR match.
There are several things I see right now.
1- the issue of not allowing sleds and forcing people to load from a real magazine.
This class is supposed to be shot along side other High Power and F-Class competitors, using the same targets and course of fire. Prone is ALWAYS fired "with one round load..." So this means that Rule 23 shooters must insert a magazine with one round for each and every shot. I shot plenty of Service Rifle and a magazine follower was not the most dependable. A Bob Sled was. Changing a magazine for every round while prone, is not conducive to keeping you safe and in position.
On the other hand, using a sled allows people to cheat on ammo. We have already seen earlier on this thread where someone was using 80grainers in a 5.56/.223. That's not legal since it doesn't fit in a regular magazine (and I have not seen one of those tricked out mags that allows one to place a 80grainer-loaded cartridge in the mag, in years.)
I can see where you allow the use of a sled AND can enforce the mag-length cartridge rule by having the person load some rounds in a mag to check. ICFRA has similar rules for F-TR with unmodified .223 and .308.
Having people shoot from a magazine and others using one round load is going to be a nightmare for the match director. This is PRONE, not XTC.
2- The caliber selection.
One of the biggest differentiators between F-Open and F-TR is caliber. We've already had another thread where we discussed the impact of bipods vs front rests. When the conditions are benign or predictable, the point spread at the top end between F-TR and F-Open can be very small; throw in some wind and we see where people throwing bullets 400FPS+ faster than other people seem to get higher scores. Those slippery 7mm bullets with their high BCs slice right through the wind where the .308s get bounced around.
I'm a long time F-TR shooter and I coached an F-Open team at the Nationals. I observed the trajectory of those 7mm and I'm VERY familiar with the trajectory of a .308. The difference is very real.
I know the 6.5CM is being used by the folks for which this class is intended, but I know there is quite a difference between mag-length .308 and mag-length 6.5CM. And now we have even more exotic calibers being used like the .224 Valkyrie mentioned a few posts above. I am not aware of any agency, Alphabet Soup or Military, that uses the .224 Valkyrie in their rifles, but the way the rules are written, anything goes, as long as it fits in the magazine for that rifle.
I get that we want it inclusive but like anything else, this will evolve into an armaments race and cleans will become the norm using some of those fancy calibers. We will have to go to the F-class target soon enough.
Anyways, those are some of my thoughts and that's why I'm all set to try this out at the next MR match.
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
Yes, and that was both wrong and shortsighted.
This should actually be a division in F-class not regular High Power. We can use a bipod, a rear bag and a riflescope up to 15X and any caliber we want. This is a great combination for F-class targets, not the regular braille targets.
DR_2297
Silver $$ Contributor
You can put a magazine in an AR, toss a round in the ejection port and hit the bolt release and it will chamber.
Honestly when shooting SR from prone, single load, I use my ECI to slide the round into the chamber before closing the bolt anyway.
This is really a non-issue
Honestly when shooting SR from prone, single load, I use my ECI to slide the round into the chamber before closing the bolt anyway.
This is really a non-issue
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
I totally disagree. If they insist on a regular magazine, then you must feed from the mag. If you do not, you can use non mag-length ammo so why the need for the real magazine? You can't use a follower because that is not a regular magazine.
It says you must use a regular magazine.
It does not say you must insert one in the rifle but it's ok to single load past it, ie not use it.
They are short at least one sentence of making the point of what they're trying to accomplish so we have to guess. I really hope the point is not to make me single load in a less comfortable and safe manner than is easily and readily available.
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
Great you hosers are totally missing the point. Not your fault, it's the way the lousy rules are written.
This is what you need to look at:
"
Conceptually, this new NRA Mid-Range (Prone) Tactical Rifle (AR)
program will be designed to provide civilian, military, and police shooters
with an opportunity to shoot NRA Mid-Range Prone competition along-side
of other Mid-Range Prone shooters in matches using semi-automatic rifles
built on an “AR-Platform” and equipment generally thought of as being
“tactical” in design and use. These rifles will be configured so as to replicate
as closely as possible the tactical rifles (semi-automatic) and equipment used
by the United States Military and America’s Law Enforcement Community
in “mid-range” tactical applications. These semi-automatic rifles will be more
“off the rack” or “stock” than “competition” in nature. They will be more of
a “tactical design” than “match design” and therefore less expensive than the
vast majority of mid-range prone rifles currently in use."
I'm skipping a paragraph talking bout bipods (need folding type.)
"
This new style of competition is designed to be more “tactical” in spirit
and for that reason equipment normally found in other types of High Power
Rifle Competition such as Match Rifle, Palma Rifle and F-Class Rifle will
not be permitted. In order to understand the spirit of this new sport one might
think of this sport as “prone Service Rifle with a bipod and a scope”. This IS
NOT designed as another version of F-Class competition."
This to me, SCREAMS of using mag-length ammo. If you come to this match with non-maglenth ammo, you have just contravened the concept, intent and goal of this classification.
You should be able to come to the match with what is issued to you or what you can buy at the store and be competitive. No department that I know of issues non-mag length ammo. The 6.5CM has factory ammo that is very precise; that's the nature of the beast. I am not aware of factory loading for .224 Valkyrie, but I may be wrong there.
If you come to this match with non-mage length ammo in an issued caliber or use a caliber that is not issued anywhere, you are contravening the intent of this rule and you should be in F-class, specifically what that last line states you should not consider this class to be.
The regular targets simply do not stand a chance against fast high-BC bullets fired from a bipod with a 15X scope. It's ludicrous to even think so. It will become a game of Xs in short order.
If you use a magazine with a follower, you are going against the intent of the classification.
This is why I am saying the rules are badly written and I will be sending a detailed response to the NRA in the next few months.
This is what you need to look at:
"
Conceptually, this new NRA Mid-Range (Prone) Tactical Rifle (AR)
program will be designed to provide civilian, military, and police shooters
with an opportunity to shoot NRA Mid-Range Prone competition along-side
of other Mid-Range Prone shooters in matches using semi-automatic rifles
built on an “AR-Platform” and equipment generally thought of as being
“tactical” in design and use. These rifles will be configured so as to replicate
as closely as possible the tactical rifles (semi-automatic) and equipment used
by the United States Military and America’s Law Enforcement Community
in “mid-range” tactical applications. These semi-automatic rifles will be more
“off the rack” or “stock” than “competition” in nature. They will be more of
a “tactical design” than “match design” and therefore less expensive than the
vast majority of mid-range prone rifles currently in use."
I'm skipping a paragraph talking bout bipods (need folding type.)
"
This new style of competition is designed to be more “tactical” in spirit
and for that reason equipment normally found in other types of High Power
Rifle Competition such as Match Rifle, Palma Rifle and F-Class Rifle will
not be permitted. In order to understand the spirit of this new sport one might
think of this sport as “prone Service Rifle with a bipod and a scope”. This IS
NOT designed as another version of F-Class competition."
This to me, SCREAMS of using mag-length ammo. If you come to this match with non-maglenth ammo, you have just contravened the concept, intent and goal of this classification.
You should be able to come to the match with what is issued to you or what you can buy at the store and be competitive. No department that I know of issues non-mag length ammo. The 6.5CM has factory ammo that is very precise; that's the nature of the beast. I am not aware of factory loading for .224 Valkyrie, but I may be wrong there.
If you come to this match with non-mage length ammo in an issued caliber or use a caliber that is not issued anywhere, you are contravening the intent of this rule and you should be in F-class, specifically what that last line states you should not consider this class to be.
The regular targets simply do not stand a chance against fast high-BC bullets fired from a bipod with a 15X scope. It's ludicrous to even think so. It will become a game of Xs in short order.
If you use a magazine with a follower, you are going against the intent of the classification.
This is why I am saying the rules are badly written and I will be sending a detailed response to the NRA in the next few months.
I think you and the NRA are overthinking this. This should be an entry-level class for new people to come out and shoot something they already have laying around. The NRA trying to define "tactical" is just dumb. I'd say the restrictions on scope power, trigger weight, and overall weight should also be removed so that literally ANYONE can play. The MR1 target is HUGE, any one with halfway decent equipment/ammo and a reasonable amount of skill should be able to clean it in short order from a bipod with a scope, regardless of the cartridge they are using. Sling shooters do it pretty regularly with both scopes and irons. Service rifle shooters do it fairly often now too with 4.5x scopes. Hopefully the people trying this out will quickly see how easy it is, and want to move to one of the more challenging disciplines, either sling or F-class. Gaming this particular class is just silly, but I have no doubt some will do it anyways. It'd be like being the champion of bowling with the bumper rails up.
This is a topic I'd like to chime in on. I run the Mid Range matches at Mill Creek Rifle Club. I must say when this AR Tactical hit the scene, I was not a great fan. But now I am. We run what is actually three different disciplines, Sling, F Class and AR Tactical, at the same match. None compete against any other. The intent of AR Tactical is explained in the opening statement of the highpower rule book. I have shooters that cross over from one discipline to another just for the fun of it. All have a great time. Yes, there can be an advantage in caliber used, but I have not seen it yet. When a shooter takes a caliber of higher performance and uses it in a 20" barrel or less, performance is diminished. Actually in my opinion most performance calibers, that one would build, have longer barrels.
Now as to loading, I had the quandary as to the interpretation of NRA AR Tact. rules. It's vague enough to interpret any way you want. I made a decision that NRA slow fire rules apply. One at a time. I would like the single shot sled legalized for ergonomic reasons. Those things can be a bear with fat fingers. Yes, a shooter can cheat with long loaded ammunition. But in my matches they will suffer the consequences if caught intentionally cheating. Heck why, those new short line .223 bullets are deadly accurate.
At this time AR Tact. does not, to my knowledge, have State, Regional or National Championship. In my area it is more of a local club match enjoyed by people shooting. Keep it the way it is. If one sees an area for improvement, contact the NRA competitions committee via email and express them. And, that's another story.
Steve Finnell
MCRC match director
Now as to loading, I had the quandary as to the interpretation of NRA AR Tact. rules. It's vague enough to interpret any way you want. I made a decision that NRA slow fire rules apply. One at a time. I would like the single shot sled legalized for ergonomic reasons. Those things can be a bear with fat fingers. Yes, a shooter can cheat with long loaded ammunition. But in my matches they will suffer the consequences if caught intentionally cheating. Heck why, those new short line .223 bullets are deadly accurate.
At this time AR Tact. does not, to my knowledge, have State, Regional or National Championship. In my area it is more of a local club match enjoyed by people shooting. Keep it the way it is. If one sees an area for improvement, contact the NRA competitions committee via email and express them. And, that's another story.
Steve Finnell
MCRC match director
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
I'm so sad that this site cannot let me give you a thousand likes. You are dead on. You are viewing it from an MD, a competitor and a view to the intent of the classification.
I would urge you to write to the bozos on the rules committee at the NRA and I will do the same. The more of us who tell them what to write, the better the rules will be and the more people will come out to play and play safely and have a good time.
I was agreeing that he most reasonable interpretation of section 23 is that ammo must feed through a normal mag. As 'real' tactical shooters would do.
224 Valkyrie actually illustrates a downside of that though.
The main point of inventing the round was to get a factory load that fires high BC 90gr bullets out of an AR15 mag for accuracy at range.
So now we're saying the 223 guy can't single load 90s but the Valkyrie guy can shoot them because they fit in his mag. That's not great.
224 Valkyrie might not be tactical issue anywhere now because it's new but it wouldn't be at all a bad choice for 'real life' mid range tactical shooting.
224 Valkyrie actually illustrates a downside of that though.
The main point of inventing the round was to get a factory load that fires high BC 90gr bullets out of an AR15 mag for accuracy at range.
So now we're saying the 223 guy can't single load 90s but the Valkyrie guy can shoot them because they fit in his mag. That's not great.
224 Valkyrie might not be tactical issue anywhere now because it's new but it wouldn't be at all a bad choice for 'real life' mid range tactical shooting.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
The rules state that a mag must be "attached", they don't say that you must feed rounds from it. This is only one of the places where the rules for this new class are very nebulous.
As this current discussion is going on, I am recalling a few things from several years ago here at A.S., where suggestions for this new class were solicited and discussion about the format held. I recall suggesting at the time that this class be limited to commercial ammunition, given the stated intent. However, the rules also state in at least one instance that any caliber up to and including .308 may be used. So it can very easily be argued by someone using a caliber for which there are few (or none) choices that in fact, they MUST handload. I personally like the idea of limiting it to commercial ammunition, but the only feasible way to do that would be to limit rounds to mag length, as Denys and Steve suggested. But then the Rules would also need to be updated to reflect that feeding from the mag was required, which could be interpreted to prevent the use of a mag follower. The list of seeming contradictions doesn't end there.
The bottom line is that the rules for this class seem ill-prepared and thought-out, with a number of areas that are quite nebulous. If the NRA wants this discipline to grow, they need to quit trying to walk a fine line halfway between sling and F-Class and come up with a better version of the rules specific to this discipline that will allow it to have its own separate identity.
FWIW - Denys, in looking through the Rulebook, I found in that section 3.1c states that a piston-based system can be used; it doesn't specifically have to be the Stoner-type gas system.
As this current discussion is going on, I am recalling a few things from several years ago here at A.S., where suggestions for this new class were solicited and discussion about the format held. I recall suggesting at the time that this class be limited to commercial ammunition, given the stated intent. However, the rules also state in at least one instance that any caliber up to and including .308 may be used. So it can very easily be argued by someone using a caliber for which there are few (or none) choices that in fact, they MUST handload. I personally like the idea of limiting it to commercial ammunition, but the only feasible way to do that would be to limit rounds to mag length, as Denys and Steve suggested. But then the Rules would also need to be updated to reflect that feeding from the mag was required, which could be interpreted to prevent the use of a mag follower. The list of seeming contradictions doesn't end there.
The bottom line is that the rules for this class seem ill-prepared and thought-out, with a number of areas that are quite nebulous. If the NRA wants this discipline to grow, they need to quit trying to walk a fine line halfway between sling and F-Class and come up with a better version of the rules specific to this discipline that will allow it to have its own separate identity.
FWIW - Denys, in looking through the Rulebook, I found in that section 3.1c states that a piston-based system can be used; it doesn't specifically have to be the Stoner-type gas system.
Service rifle magazines must be 'attached'
Tactical magazines must be 'used'
If anything the different words support the idea that in tactical rounds must pass through the mag.
I'd say a comprehensive list of allowed standard cartridges. Save the wildcats and competition only stuff for match and f.
223,224 Valkyrie, 6.5G, 6.8SPC? 300Blk?
243? 6CM? 6.5CM 260? 308
Add a couple of others if you allow non-AR rifles
Tactical magazines must be 'used'
If anything the different words support the idea that in tactical rounds must pass through the mag.
I'd say a comprehensive list of allowed standard cartridges. Save the wildcats and competition only stuff for match and f.
223,224 Valkyrie, 6.5G, 6.8SPC? 300Blk?
243? 6CM? 6.5CM 260? 308
Add a couple of others if you allow non-AR rifles
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