Darnation!! I Need Help

[Twud]

Got a new custom 6 BR, BAT action, Krieger 12T bbl. I'm trying to load the best ammo I can but am thwarted by seating depth.
Using Lapua brass, custom bullets and a Redding Comp Micrometer seating die the best I can do is .006" on either side of my target depth. I bought a Forster Comp die and got the same results. I've measured all my bullets to the ogive and came up with an extreme spread of .004". I've disasembled the seating die and cleaned the packing grease out and replaced it with a light coat of gun grease. The tip of the bullets seat very nicely into the seater stem and the meplat dosen't bottom out. I'm using a Redding press that's nice and tight. I just bought a new set of calipers and gaging blocks, both sets were right there.
I seat them slowly and turn as I go. The man that built the rifle uses the same die and bullets and says he gets 0 variance.
Not that it matters, I've also checked them on my runout gauge. They all measure under .0005".
The gun shoots OK with these rounds but not nearly as well as it should.
BTW- On the builders advice I'm trying to get to .005" off the lands.
I'm stumped and frustrated. HELP

 

[BoydAllen]

Adjust the body,non-sliding part) of the die so that it makes firm contact with the shell holder.

 

[6BR]

Are you saying you want to improve your run-out? If you do, I would suggest using a Wilson Seater and Neck die. The Wilson Seater and Neck die are the best dies out there unless you go custom. If you're are wanting .000 run-out, you are going to probably need custom dies. What kind of groups are you getting? I was told a run-out of .002 to .003 is perfect. My buddy uses Wilson dies, for his 6BR, and he keeps his run-out at around .002 to .003. His rifle shoots 5 shot groups, at 100 yards, in the .1's and under when he does his part. His 6BR will shoot in the .1's and .2's all day long, and he is using a Stiller Predator action, Krieger Barrel and Jewel Trigger.

Like I said above, if you're wanting .000 run-out, you're going to have to go with custom dies, and I am not sure if that will even get you what you want. Anyhow, I don't even know if this is what you're having problems with. Are you shooting benchrest? or are you just a varmint hunter. If your a varmint hunter, try not to worry about perfect run-out. If your getting less than .005 you will be fine. I will say the Wilson Seater and Neck dies will get you to at least .002 or .003.

 

[Twud]

Runout is not the issue, at .00025 I can't ask for more.
My problem, as the post details, is consistent seating depth.
The rifle is to be used for varminting and some fun at the bench. It was built to benchrest standards, just not quite as heavy. It has the best of everything on it, Kreiger, BAT, Shehane, Jewell, Zeiss, Stolle. It's more than accurate for varmints but not as accurate as it should be.
I asked the folks as Sinclair about in-line dies and they talked me out of it. Redding says it's the bullets, but with an extreme spread of .004" I don't think that's the problem.

 

[alf]

Twud,

If your bullets are running a 4 thou variance, I'd try sorting your bullets, and changing your seater to match.

Kinda chasing your tail trying to stay 5 thou off the lands with 4 thou bullets.

I always start load work with the bullet hard in the lands, trying for a square mark on the bullet. There's only one direction to go after that.

Al

 

[Kodiak99317]

thwarted by seating depth...
I can do is .006" on either side of my target depth.
I'm stumped and frustrated. HELP

Twud,

Could be too light of neck tension and the powder is re-expanding and pushing the bullet out some? Loading an empty case will check this theory out.

Could also be your running to tight of neck, some like 2 to 4 thou total clearance, loaded vs chamber NK size. Maybe this could explain poor performance, plus you are using wind flags for your tests right?

 

[memilanuk]

Twud,

You and me both, man. You and me both.

I got kind of blase about seating depth for a while, since I was running a highly compressed load, seated well into the rifling - +10 thou past a hard jam. Didn't matter what kind of seater I used,Wilson, Forster, Redding, all micrometer), unless I cranked up the neck tension, the depth was fairly inconsistent. Messed around with swirling and vibrating the charge to compact it a bit, but nothing made much improvement. The gun shot very well, and I figured the rifling would put the bullet where it needed to be. So I didn't worry about it much - if it works, it works. Still kind of gnawed at me, though. I don't like things that I think I should be able to control and can not.

Currently I'm kind of scratching my head on a seating depth issue on a new gun. Got the bright idea I was going to try loading my 6x47L on my Dillon 550, albeit slowly. Actually, everything was working pretty well, right up until the seating die in station #3 - I was getting variations +/- 3-4 thou. Again, the bullet is seated deep into the lands with moderate-light neck tension,0.001-0.002 thou), and shoots very well... but it bugs the heck out of me to have that kind of variation. There are a few things I'm looking at trying to tighten up the tolerances on that press, but its looking to be kind of an on-going process to find and debug the issues, so I moved the Redding Competition Seater die back to the Forster Co-Ax press. Less variation, but still some,3-4 thou total spread, with most of them in a ~2 thou band) - and more than I'd like. I don't believe this load is compressed at all - 39.5gr of H4350 behind a B105VLD seated to 1.910" comparator length,~2.650" OAL).

As with you, someone I know claims to be able to seat his bullets to dead-nuts,+/- 0.0005 or less) on his desired seating depth. From talking with him he's actually setting the die to be just a bit shy of the target depth, and then just a skosh more pressure on the handle,already against the stop) usually is enough to bump it to where he wants it.

Maybe I'm just not that sensitive in my seating process... if the dang thing is up against a stop, that should be it... right?

Boyd, I'm curious... are you saying that we'd see a marked difference w/ the seating die screwed in to where the die body,not the sleeve) bottoms out on the shell holder? Any theories as to why that would make a significant difference?

TIA,

Monte

 

[Twud]

I don't see where it matters how deep you set the die either. The sleeve just aligns the casing. It's the sliding stem at the top of the the sleeve that does the pushing. If I set my die all the way down to the ram the micrometer graduations wind up on the other side of the die where they can't be seen.
I've measured and sorted my bullets and am gonna' give it another try.
Oh, The gun has a .265 neck and I'm using .002" grip. As this is new brass I can't do much about it now, but I think I'll use a bushing that will tighten things up a bit when it comes time to neck size on the second loading.

 

[Twud]

Kodiak,
I'm not shooting any rounds, just working with dummy cases. The rounds I have fired grouped at .218". I'm not shooting a compressed load or anything close to it.

 

[Twud]

Alf,
With the ram raised all the way there is a set distance between the seater stem and the shell holder. I seeems to me that no matter how long or short the bullet is the finished rounds should be the same length. In other words any excess length or shortage is gonna' wind up in the neck.
Yes No?

 

[AlNyhus]

Twud: Just a couple of ?'s for you:

- What are you using for a comparator?
- Are the cases you're checking primed?
- What bullets are you using?
- Have you tried other bullets and checked them?

Good shootin'. -Al

 

[Twud]

Stoney Point Comparator
Unprimed cases - but I see where your going
Hammonds 68 grain FB - hand made by the man that built the gun he says he gets 0 variance with a Wilson seater Sinclair says a Wilson seater won't do any bettter job than than the Redding comp
Tried Bergers - same situation
I've tried to get recommendations on some other premium bullet, but no one seems to want to give it up

 

[AlNyhus]

Okay..now try this.

Try a .22 cal. insert in the Stoney Point comparator and then measure some. This will check the bullet at another point along the tangent.

Bullets from the same point up die...even if they have differing bullet base to ogive dimensions will have identical case base to ogive dimensions. The dimensional difference will be in how much bullet is in the case neck. The only other wild card in this is bullet diameter. If you have a micrometer that measures to .0001's,ten thousandths), check the diameter of the bullets that are seating 'long' or 'short'.

That you are having similar issues with two different bullets tells me it's probably not the bullets. I would try resetting the seating die to make firm contact with the shellholder and check 'em again. Another thing that sometimes helps with a threaded die is to put a large 'o' ring between the lock ring and the press to let the die 'float' a bit. In know that in theory this shouldn't be an issue with the Redding sliding sleeve setup, but it's another low buck thing to try in the process of elimination.

If they are still all over the place, try a Wilson seating die to see if that helps.

Try one thing at a time so you can isolate the problem.

Hope this helps. -Al

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The reasons for setting the die up to bottom firmly on the shellholder is to take up any slack in the press linkage and to make everything align better. This may or may not be your problem. Redding does not recommend setting their comp. sliding sleeve dies up this way as you may well damage the die.---Mike Ezell

 

[treeman]

twud, you might try running an expander through the necks of the new brass to eliminate any variation of neck tension. just a thought! ______treeman

 

[Twud]

I'm kinda" stuck on fooling with neck diameter as the gun has a .265 tight neck. All my cases have been turned to .261 which leaves me with .002 grip and .002 chamber clearnce.
I got out my 22.250 loads and out of 20 rounds I had no more than .002 variance. This was with a Forster die.

 

[SlowpokeRodriguez]

To keep these issues from happening I always use the reamers to cut the dies. Wilson's are the choice for me for seating. Not to say what the issue really is however sometimes by doing everything from the ground up will keep this from happening. The best of components are only as good as the weakest link.

 

[Twud]

Think I figured it out. Given the time and effort I've got in these casings I've been reusing 4 as test dummies. Each time I seat a bullet deeper the additional depth I seated it to is pushing back up into a "loose" area of the neck created by the previous bullet. When I use virgin brass they seat right on the money.
I've always done this in the past with conventional dies without a problem. But in the past I wasn't dealing with .010" neck walls, tight necks and .002" grip.
Does this make sense?

 

[AlNyhus]

Twud....yes, that would do it.

Good on you for pickin' and peckin' away at it until you discovered the cause. That's the kind of stuff that gets filed away in our brains for future troubleshooting.

Good job. :thumb:

 

[holstil]

I had same kind of issues with my Wilson inline seater with micrometer top. lynn's RX worked for me.
Thanks Jim