cyro for barrels

[rjtfroggy]

First off I'm not a toolmaker or a gunsmith, but am wondering about the use of this treatment on barrels?
Is it worth it, does it make the barrel better, last longer, machine easier?
Before I commit to it for my next barrel I would like a little more info about doing it, or is it a waste of time and money?

 

[Sniperhandle]

Frank Green from Bartlein pretty much says it's snake oil. If I remember right, He said when he was at Kreiger, They used it, But when they formed Bartlein they did not think it was worth doing. I'm paraphrasing of course.

 

[mike mccormick]

There have been some pretty exhaustive tests done, none of which saw any benefits. I am not aware of any of the top competitors doing it. If it was of ANY benefit, all of F class would be doing it

 

[jackieschmidt]

Krieger said they used it back in the mid 2000’s to increase machinability in their manufacturing process. At the time, they stated that tooling cost was documented to be lowered. I chambered quite a few Kriegers in that time period.

I guess the ceased doing it because the cost of the process negated the tooling cost savings.

I personally had a 1-17 Krieger cryo treated AFTER I had established its potential. When I put it back on the rifle, I could not say one way or the other if anything changed.

During the time Krieger was cryon treating their barrels, I convinced myself that they did indeed show improvement in all of my machining operations.

But looking back, there might have been a physiological factor involved. I think I can say with confidence that aside from your pocket book, Cryo Treatment sure doesn’t hurt anything.

 

[oliver88]

I have been Cryogenic treating barrels for the last few years per customer requests.

I have conducted several side by side tests of barrels… cryo treated v/s non cryo treated. Here is the process and the observations of one such test. I have found these same results each time I manufacture a cryogenic treated barrel.


Test barrels were 32” long 6.5mm Fclass contour barrels.

• Both barrels cut to length from the same bar of steel center section.
• Both barrels pre-machine stress relief cycle … ramp 3 hrs/ soak 6 hrs
• Both barrels drilled/reamed/rifled with same tooling
• Both barrels post-machine stress relief cycle… ramp 3 hrs/ soak 10 hrs
• Both barrels measured exactly the same with air gages
• One barrel sent for cryogenic treatment

Both barrels then contoured back to back with the same inserts and lathe.

• The non-treated barrel cut normal with normal chip formation.
• The treated barrel produced a longer chip and I also noticed the lathe sounded like it was cutting air (no motor load).

Both barrels then placed in bench center and an indicator placed in center length. I do this with all of my barrels after contouring.

• The non-treated barrel measured .003 total deviation @ 16”
• The treated barrel measured .0007 total deviation @ 16”
• One of the best ones ever- I had to set up a tenth indicator!!

Both barrels then rough lapped using the same length of lap and the exact number of strokes. The lapping compound application was also exactly matched.

• The non treated barrel felt normal
• The treated barrel felt like pushing and pulling a loose patch. Probably about half of normal force for lapping.

Both barrels then cleaned to remove the lapping compound.

• The non treated barrel felt normal.
• The treated barrel pushed the patch with about half of the normal force. My first reaction was- “oh crap I lapped it too much and ruined it”.

The next step was inspection with the video borescope. I run a Hawkeye camera system attached to a 32” HD monitor with LED light source.

• The non treated barrel looked normal with just a few very light tool marks on the muzzle and ready to cast another lap and move on to the next finer compound for semi finish lapping.
• The treated barrel still had some tool marks in it and it was much more noticeable than the untreated barrel. It would need some more rough lapping work before it would be ready for the next compound.

The next step was to measure the barrels with the air gauge unit. Edmunds Accutouch with XX rings.

• The non treated barrel measured normal and correct for the next level of lapping.
• The treated barrel measured .0002 smaller than the non treated barrel. This was both bore and groove dimensions.

So after some additional rough lapping on the cryogenic treated barrel I then moved on to semi-finish and finish lapping of both barrels prior to the final inspection.

• The non treated barrel final lap finish looked normal.
• The cryogenic treated barrel finish appeared to be smoother and produced much more light reflection. It required me to turn down the light source because the light reflection was blinding the camera.

So from based on what I have measured, witnessed and felt in my lapping hand the claims of cryogenic treated barrels are true.

• It is more wear resistant. I know that it takes more lapping strokes to measure the same cutting effect.
• It cleans easier and produces a better surface finish inside of the bore. I can see it on the monitor that is connected to my video borescope.
• I feel less force to push a lap or patch. One can conclude that a bullet must also feel less force and that should increase velocity as is claimed. This has since been verified by a customer using a Labradar with these two test barrels. The Cryo treated barrel ran 76 ft/sec faster in identical 6.5X47L chambers, bullets, powder load and primers.
• I have seen that my contouring lathe cuts cryogenic treated material like butter. Since it cuts easier it will increase the quality of the chamber work and threading. This will also produce a smoother chamber throat making break-in much faster.

From my testing and experience I can say that YES cryogenic treated barrels are worth it. However, for maximum effect the process should be completed as part of the barrel manufacturing process. I am planning to Cryogenic treat all of my barrels in house as part of my manufacturing process.

And for our Poetry friend.... The industry standard temperature for deep cryogenics is -196C.
I have also tested and found the same results with a dry ice acetone bath.

 

[jackieschmidt]

I find the ID dimensional change intriguing.

From what I have studied through the years, the single provable aspect of Cryon Treating was to increase ductility in certain alloys subjected to high stress and impact loads, such as the landing gear on airliners and items such as axels and gears in machinery that come under rigorous use.
The theory is it completes the Martesite transformation after tempering for specific properties.
I think it would surprise many to know how prevalent Cryo Treating is in the manufacture of all sorts of machinery world wide.

I have several barrel blanks I would like to get Cryo Treated. They are Bartliens. Can you send me a PM?

 

[L.Sherm]

I've wondered about cryo for along time, I had a conversation with a multi national champion a few years ago about cryo and he told me his barrels get it.
I think a big sample like 3-5 barrels of the exact same lot of steel, conture, chambered with the same reamer put on the same action shot before then after keeping brass and keeping everything as close to possible would be a good test.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I can only say one thing for certain and it's that the bbl machines much smoother and easier. To me, it's worth it for this reason alone. I have plans to soon do testing regarding how cryo'd vs non cryo'd tune and/or hold tune, in the near future. I have reason to believe there may be some benefit here but I'll know more once I have barrels to test with this single aspect in mind. I do have reason to believe it has an effect on bbl harmonics but I'm not sure how much or if it will be measurable on target....but it's real.

Overall, my past experience with cryo'd bbls is that it helped with machining but I could not say that they shot better or worse...either way. No down side that I can see here. Only upsides, aside from a small upcharge that may well be offset in time as well as finish of the barrel when done. The chips flow better and I have seen a better finish with them. I do prefer to machine a cryo'd bbl...fwiw. Tool wear is also a beneficial aspect.

I do want to add this for anyone that doesn't know oliver88. He is quite possibly making the best barrels we have ever seen to date. Yes, that's a big statement, especially when there are several very good makers out there. When that man speaks in regard to bbl making, I hope we all pay close attention to what he has to say.

 

[bugman]

I can only say one thing for certain and it's that the bbl machines much smoother and easier. To me, it's worth it for this reason alone. I have plans to soon do testing regarding how cryo'd vs non cryo'd tune and/or hold tune, in the near future. I have reason to believe there may be some benefit here but I'll know more once I have barrels to test with this single aspect in mind. I do have reason to believe it has an effect on bbl harmonics but I'm not sure how much or if it will be measurable on target....but it's real.

Overall, my past experience with cryo'd bbls is that it helped with machining but I could not say that they shot better or worse...either way. No down side that I can see here. Only upsides, aside from a small upcharge that may well be offset in time as well as finish of the barrel when done. The chips flow better and I have seen a better finish with them. I do prefer to machine a cryo'd bbl...fwiw. Tool wear is also a beneficial aspect.

I do want to add this for anyone that doesn't know oliver88. He is quite possibly making the best barrels we have ever seen to date. Yes, that's a big statement, especially when there are several very good makers out there. When that man speaks in regard to bbl making, I hope we all pay close attention to what he has to say.

...and what company would that be. PM me if oliver88 wants anonymity?

 

[Sniperhandle]

ABC Barrels

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

...and what company would that be. PM me if oliver88 wants anonymity?

Yes...ABC. I don't think it's that he wants anonymity, although he is very modest. I think it's that he's been crazy busy with moving locations and not ready to start taking orders just yet. But, ya'll feel free to blow up his pm account and tell him to hurry up! Lol! Their barrels are EXCEPTIONAL!

 

[Keith Glasscock]

There have been some pretty exhaustive tests done, none of which saw any benefits. I am not aware of any of the top competitors doing it. If it was of ANY benefit, all of F class would be doing it

F-classers are a secretive bunch. There are plenty of them (some at the top) that swear by cryo.

 

[LVLAaron]

Well now I want one done.

 

[rjtfroggy]

I have been waiting for Anthony since before the move south.
Supposedly it is getting close hopefully I'll have it before the season starts here in the northeast.
I have 2 of his barrels now and they shoot great.
If you want to order please wait till I get mine.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I have been waiting for Anthony since before the move south.
Supposedly it is getting close hopefully I'll have it before the season starts here in the northeast.
I have 2 of his barrels now and they shoot great.
If you want to order please wait till I get mine.

I'm just guessing his inbox is already full! Lol!