Cyro barrel treatment

[Eddie Harren]

I have had 300 Below do about 20 barrels for me since 2013. Don't know and can't say whether it makes a barrel more accurate, but I do know that it absolutely makes my barrels easier to clean. As far as throat erosion goes, I have 2 barrels, one with 3K rounds thru it and the other with 4K thru it and the lands are still square and the edges are sharp as ever looking at it with a borescope.

The power of the intellectual mind knows no limits. Belief is a powerful thing.

 

[Endyo]

Jim may I ask what caliber's those barrels are?

That is an interesting report. If that's the only tangible benefit it may still be worth it.

It is very tough to tell how much of what we do is for "feel good" vs actual results.

My last barrel went South very quickly with significant throat erosion and rounding of lands within 1400 rounds (284 Win) My cleaning habits were nothing to write home about and I wonder how much of a contributing factor that was in it's demise.

 

[savagedasher]

I don't know about gun barrels they aren't hard .
Hard wear surface and in race related parts It helps . Larry

 

[JimPag]

Jim may I ask what caliber's those barrels are?

That is an interesting report. If that's the only tangible benefit it may still be worth it.

It is very tough to tell how much of what we do is for "feel good" vs actual results.

My last barrel went South very quickly with significant throat erosion and rounding of lands within 1400 rounds (284 Win) My cleaning habits were nothing to write home about and I wonder how much of a contributing factor that was in it's demise.

6PPC, 30 Gorilla, 30BR, 30BRX, 30 Jag2, 6x47 Lapua, & 6BR. Like I said I don't have any idea if there is any accuracy benefits, There might be and there might not be. People can say what they want but their just talking out of their ass. The avg benchrest shooter doesn't have a clue, it's all speculation. Eddie Harren has a good point about the mind. The mind is a powerful tool. If you believe it works, (whether it does or doesn't) it can just give you a little extra confidence. There are just so many variables in the benchrest game, it's hard to say that somethings work all the time. Why is it that one week you can go to a match and kick everyone's ass and the next week you get it handed to you on a plate? Same load, same rifle, but temp, humidity, wind conditions aren't the same and you get smoked. One month ago after getting smoked at 100 yards at a State Match here in Maine with my 30 Gorilla, I finally convinced myself that it was time to hang that old Krieger up. I kept putting it off, convincing myself that it would still shoot. Well I screwed a new Bartlein 17TW on it and broke it in my way, (shoot 5, clean, shoot 5 clean, done). Next day fired 2 sighters, then shot two 3 shot groups, 1st one was .046, second .106, done. Convinced myself this barrel will shoot with 18 rounds thru it, and convinced myself that I would do well at the next match with it. Two weeds ago I went to my 1st match with it, a 2 day state match in Johnstown, NY, won the 100 yard match with a 250-21X, came in 3rd at 200 with my 30 Jag 2, and came in 2nd in the Grand Agg. I really believe that after seeing what that barrel could do at home at my range, that my mind convinced me that I could actually do good with it. It was the 1st time I believed in my mind that I could do well with this particular rifle. It just may have given me the extra edge, who knows because you still have to read the flags, know where to hold and pull the trigger at the right time.

 

[cowboybart]

I had 2 barrels done at 300 Below. Neither were tack drivers and both were big bores. The 375 JDJ gained 28 fps vel. and cleaned easy. The 416 Wby cleaned very easy, and groups tightened a bit (1/4"@100). Neither of these barrels will ever see enough rounds thru them to see if barrel life was extended. If I had a mediocre barrel, I would be willing to take the $85 gamble.

Both were CM barrels

 

[Lefin102]

Hi Everyone,

Just thinking on this treatment and how a few years ago it was heavily advertized and now not so much.

I personally treated a few barrels and with mixed results. First was a Ruger Mini 14 SS. It shot not great 4" @85 yards. After 2" @85 yards. 100% improvement. Next an old Rem 700 heavy 243. blued steel no change. Next a 9mm CMMG blued steel for Glock clone shot 3" @10 yards after 1.5". This was done for a sales guy at my shooting store/range he built the gun and wasn't happy with it until I treated it. Then my 22 250 SS no change. All barrels used the same lot of ammo before and after.

I spoke to Shilen , Douglas & Hart. They don't cryotreat, either bad results or no difference. JP rifles does cryotreat treat.

Are any of you still getting barrels treated?

Thx Frank

 

[butchlambert]

Hi Everyone,

Just thinking on this treatment and how a few years ago it was heavily advertized and now not so much.

I personally treated a few barrels and with mixed results. First was a Ruger Mini 14 SS. It shot not great 4" @85 yards. After 2" @85 yards. 100% improvement. Next an old Rem 700 heavy 243. blued steel no change. Next a 9mm CMMG blued steel of R Glock clone shot 3" @10 yards after 1.5". This was done for a sales guy at my shooting store/range he built the gun and wasn't happy with it until I treated it. Then my 22 250 SS no change. All barrels used the same lot of ammo before and after.

I spoke to Shilen , Douglas & Hart. They don't cryotreat, either bad results or no difference. JP rifles does cryotreat treat.

Are any of you still getting barrels treated?

Thx Frank

Don't waste your money!

 

[Fast14riot]

I agree, that after the barrel is made, it is nearly pointless. Cryo treatment has its benefits, but must be thought of as continuation of the quench at the end of heat treatment. Converting retained austenite to martinsite will improve machinability, wear resistance and durability, but the temper cycles usually applied after quench are what really determines retained stresses in the material.

When shooting long strings or getting a barrel hot, approaching low tempering temperatures (really hot as far as barrels go, tempering starts around 500°F for 416R), that when you are seeing "stress" move the barrel, due to an improper tempering cycle.

Why buy a less expensive barrel and spend money on aftermarket treatment? Buy a better barrel to start with. Barrels are wear items anyway.

 

[Lefin102]

All,

This is from the JP write-up. JP still cryo treat their barrels I'm not posting to butt heads, please understand that now. I'm interested in why it's intermittent. All things are not equal or the effect would be more consistent, bad or good. I'm going to reach out to metallurgist for more info.




Cryogenic Treatment
The cryogenic treatment that JP Supermatch barrels undergo is a day-long process using liquid nitrogen to slowly lower the barrel’s temperature to -300° F, after which it is then heated to approx. +300° F. This treatment yields three major benefits, namely: cold bore shot predictability, minimum thermal drift and vastly superior barrel life. No other major manufacturer invests this expense and added effort into every barrel, but years of experience have shown it to be worthwhile. It is not uncommon for us to hear feedback about our .223 barrels going tens of thousands of rounds and still retaining MOA or better accuracy.

One of JP’s favorite examples is the Charles Darwin Foundation based in the Galapagos Islands. Some years back, this outfit purchased twenty-two JP-15 series rifles for use in non-indigenous species eradication programs. Their hunting operations consist of their retired SF operators shooting feral goats from helicopters so rapidly that each shooter carries a pair of rifles so they always have one to shoot while the other is cooling. When JP took the order, they understood the round count would be very high on these rifles and their accuracy requirement was MOA or better with the ammo they had specified.

After several years, JP hadn’t heard anything from the director of the program, so they emailed him asking for a status on the rifles. According to him, they now had over 40,000 rounds through each one, and they still passed the one MOA requirement. That kind of longevity is simply unheard of and can really only be attributed to the benefits of cryogenic treatment.

See our entire lineup of JP Supermatch Barrels or Craddock Precision barrels.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Just my 2 cents...Barrels machine better after cryo..like butter. I've never seen a downside and have been told by a reputable source that they vibrate differently. I'd like to get around to testing that but it would have to be a before and after test on the same barrel.

I feel like it's easier on tooling, only based on how it cuts.
Nascar races are seldom won by the best driver or car make anymore, but by engineers. Not that engineers are always right but they still have that piece of paper that most of us here do not, yet they use the treatment. I can only assume that they do so for a reason. Maybe it just makes them feel better.

Bottom line, I can't say that it will make a barrel great or even better, for certain but I've seen enough that if a top barrel maker offered it at a reasonable fee of say $50, I think I'd do it every time. Again, I've never seen a downside but have seen enough that I'd be willing to pay a few extra bucks for it. Particularly so, if it didn't slow me getting the barrel. I'm told it makes a difference in how they lap as well.

 

[butchlambert]

I guess the first thing you fellers need to do is a real search on cryo. -300deg ain't a true cryo. A few of the better barrelmakers advertised it early on, but very few do it any longer. It is like adding a more expensive radio to your new truck, gas mileage ain't better, it ain't faster, and won't last longer.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I guess the first thing you fellers need to do is a real search on cryo. -300deg ain't a true cryo. A few of the better barrelmakers advertised it early on, but very few do it any longer. It is like adding a more expensive radio to your new truck, gas mileage ain't better, it ain't faster, and won't last longer.

Butch, I've chambered more than a few cryo'd barrels and I can say that they all cut better. I don't care what temp they took it to...as it is obvious. That's all.

If you don't believe in it, I totally understand. This feller believes it does do something that I can find no downside to, but I do see upside with. I can't say that it makes a better shooting barrel. I won't say it'll last longer...but I will and do say it cuts better...fwiw.

 

[Stan Taylor]

Humm stay tuned.

 

[Lefin102]

gunsandgunsmithing, I might be willing to work with you on trial bases. I have equipment that will reach 4k about -455 below zero far colder than LN2.

I can also tell you that I have never seen a vessel crack from getting that cold. They get thermal cycled often too. Meaning from room temp to 4k and some time later back to room temp.

Frank

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

gunsandgunsmithing, I might be willing to work with you on trial bases. I have equipment that will reach 4k about -455 below zero far colder than LN2.

I can also tell you that I have never seen a vessel crack from getting that cold. They get thermal cycled often too. Meaning from room temp to 4k and some time later back to room temp.

Frank

I'm interested. PM me and maybe we can talk tomorrow.

 

[Lefin102]

PM sent

 

[butchlambert]

Butch, I've chambered more than a few cryo'd barrels and I can say that they all cut better. I don't care what temp they took it to...as it is obvious. That's all.

If you don't believe in it, I totally understand. This feller believes it does do something that I can find no downside to, but I do see upside with. I can't say that it makes a better shooting barrel. I won't say it'll last longer...but I will and do say it cuts better...fwiw.

Mikey, this comes up in a thread a couple times a year. I have posted that out of the group of barrels that Ed brought over, I could identify the ones that had been cryo'ed after cutting on them in the lathe. They do machine a little better, but that is it. Blind test were done with some new steel without any machine work, some with only bore and rifled, and some after they were chambered. A metallurgist evaluated it and Ed got an expensive bill for a thorough checkout and a paper on them.
You can take this anyway you choose.One of the biggest things in shooting is in the old walnut on our shoulders. Many years ago I had a Hart barrel that I wasn't happy with. I gave it to a friend and he shot 2 zeros with it. Go figure.
Lefin appears to have some knowledge on this. Liquid nitrogen won't get it. Deep cryogenics is more properly processing near –450 F, which is very close to as low as you can go. -453F.
Gone to work.

 

[BoydAllen]

As I understand it, 416 steel, a martinsitic steel as it comes from the mill, has some residual austinite, which cryo causes to be converted into martinsite. The uniformity of hardness that results benefits drilling. Years ago, Krieger told me that that benefit alone is worth the expense of the treatment. On the issue of wear, I once prevailed on Kevin Thomas, then with Sierra, to propose a test using their .308 test barrels. I think that that test may have been the best controlled that I have read of. Accuracy was unaffected, and the slight difference in wear would not have justified the investment. Another effect of cryo is the precipitation of carbides, which might explain the difference in cleaning, that has been widely reported.

Back in the day, Doug Shilen spent a lot of money investigating whether cryo would stress relieve 416 steel, his conclusion was that it does not, BUT saying that does not conflict with the reports of increased stability, and machinability, or IMO say anything about what the effects on other types of steel might be.

There is a non-destructive test for residual stress in metal that bucks up shooters and concerned manufacturers could use. The equipment is not prohibitively expensive. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=x+ray+radiography+metal+stress

 

[butchlambert]

As I understand it, 416 steel, a martinsitic steel as it comes from the mill, has some residual austinite, which cryo causes to be converted into martinsite. The uniformity of hardness that results benefits drilling. Years ago, Krieger told me that that benefit alone is worth the expense of the treatment. On the issue of wear, I once prevailed on Kevin Thomas, then with Sierra, to propose a test using their .308 test barrels. I think that that test may have been the best controlled that I have read of. Accuracy was unaffected, and the slight difference in wear would not have justified the investment. Another effect of cryo is the precipitation of carbides, which might explain the difference in cleaning, that has been widely reported.

Back in the day, Doug Shilen spent a lot of money investigating whether cryo would stress relieve 416 steel, his conclusion was that it does not, BUT saying that does not conflict with the reports of increased stability, and machinability, or IMO say anything about what the effects on other types of steel might be.

There is a non-destructive test for residual stress in metal that bucks up shooters and concerned manufacturers could use. The equipment is not prohibitively expensive. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=x+ray+radiography+metal+stress

Boyd, you have always smooth and suave.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Mikey, this comes up in a thread a couple times a year. I have posted that out of the group of barrels that Ed brought over, I could identify the ones that had been cryo'ed after cutting on them in the lathe. They do machine a little better, but that is it.

Butchy, if you read what I posted, that is the only claim I made that I consider to be non-debatable. I think it "might" have other benefits but I stopped short of stating anything else as being a definite advantage or downside of cryo. Go back and look...I think we agree for the most part. I'm just not willing to say, matter of factly, that better machinability has no other advantages to both the barrel maker and the gunsmith. If it's better for those people, I'm inclined to believe that there may be "some" benefit to the shooter.

We both feel like it machines better...on that we agree. I don't see a downside to that. If nothing else at all, it machines better, yielding better chip evacuation and a little reduction in the time it takes to cut the chamber. Could that apply to time saving in drilling, rifling or lapping as well? I see no reason why not.