You and I got left out in that regard. Boyd certainly has a way with words that we don't have.
Cyro barrel treatment
- Thread starter tenring
- Start date
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Butchy, if you read what I posted, that is the only claim I made that I consider to be non-debatable. I think it "might" have other benefits but I stopped short of stating anything else as being a definite advantage or downside of cryo. Go back and look...I think we agree for the most part. I'm just not willing to say, matter of factly, that better machinability has no other advantages to both the barrel maker and the gunsmith. If it's better for those people, I'm inclined to believe that there may be "some" benefit to the shooter.
We both feel like it machines better...on that we agree. I don't see a downside to that. If nothing else at all, it machines better, yielding better chip evacuation and a little reduction in the time it takes to cut the chamber. Could that apply to time saving in drilling, rifling or lapping as well? I see no reason why not.
Wonder why it is not hardly used any more by the barrel makers? Mike, back in the day I did a lot of them and saw no difference in anything except easier to machine, but 416R is easy to machine as is. Evidently the savings in time and tooling was not worth the expense.
My nephew is the fine arts director for a Texas School System. He sent some trumpets and mouth pieces to be cryo'd and he thought it may be helpful. This was many years ago and I don't know if he is still doing it or not.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
A very long time ago, while writing for Accurate Shooter, I got to know a fellow who had a side business doing cryo. He was among other things a sergeant/armorer in the guard or reserves (I forget which.). One of the things that I learned from our extended phone conversations was that he had cryoed just about anything that you could think of, just to see what happened. One of these tests involved freezing national match 30-06 ammo, box and all. He told me that it had noticeably improved its accuracy, and sent me some, both frozen and as issued to try for my self. I will not claim that my test was at all scientific, but my results agreed with his, and the difference was unmistakable. He cryoed cutting tools, musical instruments, complete optical items such as binoculars and rifle scopes, and anything else that struck his fancy. His primary job was working for Ford in a plant that, if memory serves, built pickup trucks.
I thought about this real hard I ain't going to get in this pissing match y'all have fun at it.
Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
Perhaps wise. "Discretion is the better part of valor."
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Yes Brian there is entirely to many know it all's here for me to expose my adventures with cyrogenics.
AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
A good friend had Shilen built him a 30/06 on one of their Match grade barrels. We worked up a load, then he got a wild hair and had it Cryo'd.
Barrel was shooting 1.5" after the Cryo, and he was so pissed, he could not even talk about that gun.
Barrel was shooting 1.5" after the Cryo, and he was so pissed, he could not even talk about that gun.
Hi Butch,
I have +32 years with cryopumps & liquid nitrogen/ helium. I’ve been repairing superconducting magnets which use liquid helium 4.2k - 453f a long time.
I’m not a metallurgist! However I spoke to one yesterday at great length who was involved with cryo treatment from the beginning. They treated everything and saw great results across many industries. They used LN2 liquid nitrogen-320 77k. LN2 cost $0.40 a leiter. Liquid helium is anywhere between $20 to $50 depending on the source. It is a finite resource! LN2 is 78% of the air we breathe. 19% of air is oxygen. Both abundant and cheap to make liquid.
I might have found the answer to why different manufacturers are for and against this treatment which was what I wanted to know.
You can’t see with a microscope the change in structure after treatment! It does break up the lattice structure of the metal and make the molecules uniform.
If a finished piece is treated that has residual austinite when it changes to martinsitic the metal will grow or change shape!
So it depends when the metal is treated in the process is what I’ve learned.
Hope this helps,
Frank
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
I've seen a lot of cryo'd barrels. None have shot better, but I've never seen one shoot worse.
I have a "Black Star" {or is it Black Diamond???} barrel that some one gave me years ago. I think they are out of business now. If I remember right they were Lothar Walther barrels that were supposedly "cryo" treated. It shoots good and it cleans average, but no better than any other barrel I have messed with/owned.
I have a knife that says right on the blade "Cryo-edge Treated". It was a gift also and it's a good knife, it holds an edge yet is easy to sharpen {compared to a Buck}. All that said, what I notice is that there seems to be no standard of how this is done and also no clear definition of just exactly what it is, what and how it's done and exactly and clearly what it is supposed to accomplish. These issues have kept me from getting involved with spending money on "cryo" anything. Maybe it's me, but it seems a little too on the snake oily side.
On the other hand, I did have a Creek Indian medicine man bless my bow once. He was about 6ft 9inches tall and jumped and danced around yelling like a GD idiot. Sprinkled some B.S. on the bow, rubbed it down with feathers and gave it back to me......I killed a nice buck that afternoon.
I have a knife that says right on the blade "Cryo-edge Treated". It was a gift also and it's a good knife, it holds an edge yet is easy to sharpen {compared to a Buck}. All that said, what I notice is that there seems to be no standard of how this is done and also no clear definition of just exactly what it is, what and how it's done and exactly and clearly what it is supposed to accomplish. These issues have kept me from getting involved with spending money on "cryo" anything. Maybe it's me, but it seems a little too on the snake oily side.
On the other hand, I did have a Creek Indian medicine man bless my bow once. He was about 6ft 9inches tall and jumped and danced around yelling like a GD idiot. Sprinkled some B.S. on the bow, rubbed it down with feathers and gave it back to me......I killed a nice buck that afternoon.
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Wasn't that the "Death Star" barrel? The Black Star folks in Houston had a process to finish surgical instruments and adapted it to the Lothar Walther barrel blanks. Pete Pieper "Precision Barrel Work" chambered several for them to be given to the gun writers. Pete can have a little salty language, but listen to him while chambering one of their barrels. He had to buy a lot of new bushings for his reamers as they didn't seem to have any quality control over bore and groove diameter. We had a registered match in Houston in the mid 90s and they sent their hotshot shooter to compete. He quit and went home before the matches were over with his tail tucked between his legs. They donated a barrel and Jackie Schmidt ended up with it. It became a tomato stake.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Ahh yes the blackstar barrels. Good times
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
You might want to ask Gary Ocock about that.
Yep, that sounds about right.....I didn't get possession of this particular barrel until 2001 or so and they might have already been out of the business of selling barrels by then. It was free and I figured what ta hell...it might just shoot.
If I remember right weren't they a tad on the high dollar side??? The one I have had some paperwork with it and it's fluted too. I wanna say it was over $500.00 plus. I just am not "feeling" $500 when I shoot it.
Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
I've got a Blackstar barrel, it's on my 250 AI and it's by far the best rifle I own, an R700 blueprinted by a young chap named King in Lewiston, Idaho. I ordered the barrel myself from Houston. The accompanying literature said nothing about cryo treatment, but much about the electro-polished bore finishing, which was touted to apply final dimensioning and a controlled taper choke. The steel they called "SS700" as I recall.
I sent the barreled action to 300 Below and had it cryoed as a unit. It's the only barrel I own that doesn't look ugly to my bore scope, and it cleans up with very little effort on my part, never copper fouls, but then it's never had a bare bullet through it, only moly-coated (applied myself) from day one. With an HK Precision stock and a fine old Canjar set trigger, it's only a sporter but the only rifle I'd never sell.
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butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Use the search button:
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/210625/1 http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/anyone-know-anything-about-black-star-barrels.3821269/
You might order a couple more.
Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
Mine was purchased about 30 years ago as I recall. The newest post in those threads is from 2013. What should I glean from that about a company?
Here's a curious group I shot in load development through that Blackstar. Not particularly small, but from a dead cold, clean barrel an unusual shape. Apparently I needed a sixth shot to complete the circle. 87-gr TNT @3400.
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butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
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