what is the best way to produce a rifle barrel cut thread or another method. i am planning on buying a custom barrel but real don't know much about what to buy.
cut rifleings or button barrels
- Thread starter Keystone_24
- Start date
Keystone:
I am a gunsmith and specialize in rebarreling and chambering. There have been many post on this subject over the years. There a are advocates on both sides of the fence.
First, I would say there are significant improvements in high end aftermarket barrels vs factory barrels. There is a post on the Savage Shooters web site you might find interesting in reading on this subject.
In barrel making there are a number of factors as I will descrbe in the folowing:
1. Quality of materials used. Most barrel makers use the same basic materials. Chrome molly barrels are made of 4140 or 4340 and Stainless Steel barrels are made of 416 or 410 alloys.
2. All are deep drilled slightly indersized. Ironically the better barrels are not always drilled the straightest. The straightest drilled barrels are generally the most consistant. Drill dits are pushed and cut with a leading edge that is grabing new material continously. The sharpness of these bits is critical to their cutting path and whether they work harden spots in the barrel. Remember physics and machining class, drills don't drill round holes.
3. After a barrel is drilled it is reamed with a multi fluked reamer. This rounds up the hole to a prefinished ID. Reaming a barrel leaves circular tool marks in the barrel.
4. Inexpensive barrels are often now rifled.
5. Higher end barrels are now stress releived, by heating them up to about 470 degrees and allowed to cool.
6. Higher end barrels are now lapped to remove the tool marks.
7. Higher end barrels are then airgauged to check for tight and loose spots. And Lapped accordingly.
8. In higher end cut rifling barrels are single point cut. This is a very time consuming prcess. The cutter hook is drawn removing about .0001 per pass. The the barrel is indexed and the cutter hook drawn again. The process is repaeted numerous times until just short of the desired depth is reached. Many folowers of this type of rifling feel ther iws less stress in the barrel made this way.
9. I button rifling barrels the button is drawn in a single pass. There is conciderable stress generated as the buttom is pushed or pulled down the bore. This part of the process takes bout 20-40 seconds.
10. In the case of button and cut rifiling the barrel may or may not be stress relieve again.
11. The barrel is lapped into final bore diameter. Some barrel makers airgauge their barrels checking for tight/loose spots.
12. In some cases the barrel may be stress releived again. or cryo reated their barrels.
Each barrel maker has their own propiratory procedures they follow. WhatI have said is generic. Some barrel makers keep their porcesses held clost to heart others advertise theirs.
You as a shooter most likely will not see much or any shooting quality differences in high quality barrels made by either method.
You will notice in better quality barrels less copper fouling, and faster and easier cleanup.
You will notice less breakin time.
You will notice less bullet blowups in high velosity thin kacketed bullets due to less jacket distortion.
Factory gun makers normally spend less than $80.00 cost in their barrels. A good aftermarket barrel normally cost arround $300-$350 dollars.
After market barrels are generally installed by gunsmiths who specialize in truing actions and precision turning, threading, and chambering barrels. A much higher standard of quality work, IE: tooling, set-up and procedures.
You asked which is better "Cut rifling and Button rifling" both are very good. We are blessed in having a number of very good barrel makers. My suggestion is to decide on a caliber, then a rate of twist suitable for the bullet weight you plan on shooting. Research on the web an/or in shooting magazines whos barrels in the disipline that more closely relates to your shooting needs are winning with tight groups etc. After picking a caliber and call the barrel maker and tell him what you are going to do. He can guide you through his products.
I am sorry I did not answer your question with one being better than the other. I am sure you will have other posters who think one type barrel is better than the other.
Barrel makers tend to go through cycles of making better barrels. Again I would look at who are the winners.
Rustystud
I am a gunsmith and specialize in rebarreling and chambering. There have been many post on this subject over the years. There a are advocates on both sides of the fence.
First, I would say there are significant improvements in high end aftermarket barrels vs factory barrels. There is a post on the Savage Shooters web site you might find interesting in reading on this subject.
In barrel making there are a number of factors as I will descrbe in the folowing:
1. Quality of materials used. Most barrel makers use the same basic materials. Chrome molly barrels are made of 4140 or 4340 and Stainless Steel barrels are made of 416 or 410 alloys.
2. All are deep drilled slightly indersized. Ironically the better barrels are not always drilled the straightest. The straightest drilled barrels are generally the most consistant. Drill dits are pushed and cut with a leading edge that is grabing new material continously. The sharpness of these bits is critical to their cutting path and whether they work harden spots in the barrel. Remember physics and machining class, drills don't drill round holes.
3. After a barrel is drilled it is reamed with a multi fluked reamer. This rounds up the hole to a prefinished ID. Reaming a barrel leaves circular tool marks in the barrel.
4. Inexpensive barrels are often now rifled.
5. Higher end barrels are now stress releived, by heating them up to about 470 degrees and allowed to cool.
6. Higher end barrels are now lapped to remove the tool marks.
7. Higher end barrels are then airgauged to check for tight and loose spots. And Lapped accordingly.
8. In higher end cut rifling barrels are single point cut. This is a very time consuming prcess. The cutter hook is drawn removing about .0001 per pass. The the barrel is indexed and the cutter hook drawn again. The process is repaeted numerous times until just short of the desired depth is reached. Many folowers of this type of rifling feel ther iws less stress in the barrel made this way.
9. I button rifling barrels the button is drawn in a single pass. There is conciderable stress generated as the buttom is pushed or pulled down the bore. This part of the process takes bout 20-40 seconds.
10. In the case of button and cut rifiling the barrel may or may not be stress relieve again.
11. The barrel is lapped into final bore diameter. Some barrel makers airgauge their barrels checking for tight/loose spots.
12. In some cases the barrel may be stress releived again. or cryo reated their barrels.
Each barrel maker has their own propiratory procedures they follow. WhatI have said is generic. Some barrel makers keep their porcesses held clost to heart others advertise theirs.
You as a shooter most likely will not see much or any shooting quality differences in high quality barrels made by either method.
You will notice in better quality barrels less copper fouling, and faster and easier cleanup.
You will notice less breakin time.
You will notice less bullet blowups in high velosity thin kacketed bullets due to less jacket distortion.
Factory gun makers normally spend less than $80.00 cost in their barrels. A good aftermarket barrel normally cost arround $300-$350 dollars.
After market barrels are generally installed by gunsmiths who specialize in truing actions and precision turning, threading, and chambering barrels. A much higher standard of quality work, IE: tooling, set-up and procedures.
You asked which is better "Cut rifling and Button rifling" both are very good. We are blessed in having a number of very good barrel makers. My suggestion is to decide on a caliber, then a rate of twist suitable for the bullet weight you plan on shooting. Research on the web an/or in shooting magazines whos barrels in the disipline that more closely relates to your shooting needs are winning with tight groups etc. After picking a caliber and call the barrel maker and tell him what you are going to do. He can guide you through his products.
I am sorry I did not answer your question with one being better than the other. I am sure you will have other posters who think one type barrel is better than the other.
Barrel makers tend to go through cycles of making better barrels. Again I would look at who are the winners.
Rustystud
Rustystud,
Thank you for your very informed and unbiased treatise on button vs. cut rifling barrels; I concur with everything you said. Having said that, I believe certain assumptions can be made about the facts concerning the two methods of barrel making.
1) For very accurate varmint rifles and informal bench rest, button rifled barrels from any of the major barrel makers will deliver the goods.
2) For extreme accuracy and formal bench rest, cut rifled barrels are the way to go. The method of removing steel from the barrel imparts less induced stress than drawing a button down the barrel. Stress relieving button rifled barrels, post rifling, will eliminate this but not every barrel maker does this.
I know there are exceptions and that records have been won on both sides of the fence. The bottom line is that the individual shooter needs to assess his needs and match the needs to the product. One needs to find out what rifling method the barrel maker uses, whether they stress relieve after rifling, etc. to really achieve the end result. A quality gunsmith can help one decide what is really needed and is an invaluable source of information. My gunsmith, for example, knows most of the major barrel makers on a personal basis and knows if they are having problems on the shop floor or are having some other minor problem that may influence the barrel. He then orders barrels accordingly. A quality gunsmith's experience and insight will go a long way in helping with your decision.
Regards,
Chino69
Thank you for your very informed and unbiased treatise on button vs. cut rifling barrels; I concur with everything you said. Having said that, I believe certain assumptions can be made about the facts concerning the two methods of barrel making.
1) For very accurate varmint rifles and informal bench rest, button rifled barrels from any of the major barrel makers will deliver the goods.
2) For extreme accuracy and formal bench rest, cut rifled barrels are the way to go. The method of removing steel from the barrel imparts less induced stress than drawing a button down the barrel. Stress relieving button rifled barrels, post rifling, will eliminate this but not every barrel maker does this.
I know there are exceptions and that records have been won on both sides of the fence. The bottom line is that the individual shooter needs to assess his needs and match the needs to the product. One needs to find out what rifling method the barrel maker uses, whether they stress relieve after rifling, etc. to really achieve the end result. A quality gunsmith can help one decide what is really needed and is an invaluable source of information. My gunsmith, for example, knows most of the major barrel makers on a personal basis and knows if they are having problems on the shop floor or are having some other minor problem that may influence the barrel. He then orders barrels accordingly. A quality gunsmith's experience and insight will go a long way in helping with your decision.
Regards,
Chino69
This has me thinking of the question-- What makes a hummer or a barrel that is outstanding in accuracy even among others of the same grade.Was the hummer given more detail to the boreing and rifling or the finishing lap and polish? Maybe it was of a better molecular structure in the furnace which would give it the desired harmonics to promote superior accuracy.
Its all abstract. No standards or repeatability. This is why Hummers are so random. Nobody makes them.
It's probably some unknown groove/bore dimensions, which tighten toward the muzzle.
You can get good barrels all over the place now. 'Good' offering the same performance as everyone elses.
I think an accurate barrel in a hunting rifle profile requires a lot more attention to what's really going on. Alot of testing. Benchrest barrels can be made consistant, and thats all thats needed.
If making a hunting rifle, I'd ask a hunting rifle builder who knows what is working well right now. Not a benchrest rifle builder. For benchrest, you can look at what everyone competing likes.
It's probably some unknown groove/bore dimensions, which tighten toward the muzzle.
You can get good barrels all over the place now. 'Good' offering the same performance as everyone elses.
I think an accurate barrel in a hunting rifle profile requires a lot more attention to what's really going on. Alot of testing. Benchrest barrels can be made consistant, and thats all thats needed.
If making a hunting rifle, I'd ask a hunting rifle builder who knows what is working well right now. Not a benchrest rifle builder. For benchrest, you can look at what everyone competing likes.
Hummer barrels are like thoroughbred horses, there are a million thoroughbreds out there, but only 14 run the Kentucky Derby.
I have target shooters who send me 10-25 new barrels at a time, all to be chambered exactly the same. They shoot each one in a test situation. They pick one or two of the best shooters to be held back. Then they take another that is almost as good and shoot it for the season. When a match that really counts is coming up they put on their better shooting barrel then take it off again after the match. They sell the non seleted barrels for their cost on e-bay or where ever. It is funny because one of my customers sold another one of my customers some of his barrels not choosen as keepers. The second customer consistently beat the sellers scores all season. Barrels are so good today that shooting skills, and luck now play into the equation almost more than the equipment.
Rustystud
I have target shooters who send me 10-25 new barrels at a time, all to be chambered exactly the same. They shoot each one in a test situation. They pick one or two of the best shooters to be held back. Then they take another that is almost as good and shoot it for the season. When a match that really counts is coming up they put on their better shooting barrel then take it off again after the match. They sell the non seleted barrels for their cost on e-bay or where ever. It is funny because one of my customers sold another one of my customers some of his barrels not choosen as keepers. The second customer consistently beat the sellers scores all season. Barrels are so good today that shooting skills, and luck now play into the equation almost more than the equipment.
Rustystud
Rustystud
A very informative post. Thank you.
Just a couple of comments if you don’t mind . . .
When are the barrels contoured???
I do not think heating to 470° will provide much stress relief, unless you are referring to ~470°C?,Stress relief temperature will usually depend upon the final temper temperature of the hardening heat.)
“the better barrels are not always drilled the straightest†This is a fascinating statement, and one I've heard before. What is it based on . . . ???
Should a barrelmaker then try to drill not-so-straight barrels?
chino69
While you are certainly entitled to your view regarding the precision performance of cut vs. button rifled barrels, several decades of benchrest competition results unequivocally DO NOT support your opinion. The prevalence of records set and matches won with Shilen, Hart, Lilja, and, yes, Kostyshyn barrels J,as well as other button rifled barrels) attest to this.
BTW, what is your name? Do you shoot benchrest in the area? I live 9 miles from Oxford PA, and visit there several times a week.
Best Regards,
Craig Kostyshyn
Kostyshyn Precision Barrels, Inc.
www.k-bbarrels.com
A very informative post. Thank you.
Just a couple of comments if you don’t mind . . .
When are the barrels contoured???
I do not think heating to 470° will provide much stress relief, unless you are referring to ~470°C?,Stress relief temperature will usually depend upon the final temper temperature of the hardening heat.)
“the better barrels are not always drilled the straightest†This is a fascinating statement, and one I've heard before. What is it based on . . . ???
Should a barrelmaker then try to drill not-so-straight barrels?
chino69
While you are certainly entitled to your view regarding the precision performance of cut vs. button rifled barrels, several decades of benchrest competition results unequivocally DO NOT support your opinion. The prevalence of records set and matches won with Shilen, Hart, Lilja, and, yes, Kostyshyn barrels J,as well as other button rifled barrels) attest to this.
BTW, what is your name? Do you shoot benchrest in the area? I live 9 miles from Oxford PA, and visit there several times a week.
Best Regards,
Craig Kostyshyn
Kostyshyn Precision Barrels, Inc.
www.k-bbarrels.com
I've always used Krieger barrels and have always been very satisfied. I recently imported a BAT action and a Lilja 6mm barrel through Lilja and the service I received from Virginia Thompson was excellent and this alone will make me return to Lilja. I'll chamber the barrel in the next month or so in 6x47L.
It appears as if cut rifling barrels enjoys a bit of mysticism as if it will give you the edge, while everyone always says button barrels are just as good, but creating the impression that you will lack that "edge".
I know that many many records are written next to the top button barrels such as Hart, Lilja and Shilen. At the same time it appears as if cut barrel makers such as Krieger and Bartlein can simply not meet demand.
What barrels were the top performing barrels over the past 2 years?
It appears as if cut rifling barrels enjoys a bit of mysticism as if it will give you the edge, while everyone always says button barrels are just as good, but creating the impression that you will lack that "edge".
I know that many many records are written next to the top button barrels such as Hart, Lilja and Shilen. At the same time it appears as if cut barrel makers such as Krieger and Bartlein can simply not meet demand.
What barrels were the top performing barrels over the past 2 years?
JayHHI6818
Silver $$ Contributor
Here is an interesting video of the Bergara Barrel factory in Spain that is making Encore barrels.
http://www.bergarabarrels.com/
http://www.bergarabarrels.com/
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