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Button VS Cut rifling?

What causes barrel erosion? Would a slight work hardened surface change fire cracking and erosion? I feel I would be content leaving this at theory level and get back to what I can control. Steel and other factors have more to do with barrel life then this.


Ray
 
What causes barrel erosion? Would a slight work hardened surface change fire cracking and erosion? I feel I would be content leaving this at theory level and get back to what I can control. Steel and other factors have more to do with barrel life then this.


Ray
That's exactly what your barrel is doing when you fire a round. This is what everyone that refers to a break in is actually missing. Steel hardens under pressure and heat, your bore is doing just that. Nitride is an extreme hardening but still the same result, hardness is the cause of fire cracking and throat erosion.
 
That's exactly what your barrel is doing when you fire a round. This is what everyone that refers to a break in is actually missing. Steel hardens under pressure and heat, your bore is doing just that. Nitride is an extreme hardening but still the same result, hardness is the cause of fire cracking and throat erosion.

Again, a barrel is going to wear because of all the things mentioned regardless of the method that puts rifling in the bore. The only downside that I can come up with that is possibly for certain to button rifling is the uniformity in twist rate. The way I understand it is cut rifling can and does have a more uniform and consistent (read that as more exact) twist rate. Given the method for both cut and button I can see how this would be true. Aside from that I can't discern a real perceived difference between the two. In my experience shooting my button rifled and other people's cut rifled barrels, one can be every bit as accurate as the other.
 
I can picture hammer forging affecting barrel life, possibly increasing.
You could ask Lothar Walther about this.

You may not know it, but LW is fully capable of all things barrel-making.
Anything you could dream up -for the $$$.
 
Some of this may be related to the fact that sometimes cut rifling is deeper than button rifling. For instance, I use a lot of .308 barrels that are .298 bore and .3075 rifling depth. That's a difference of .0095 or almost .005 deep rifling. I haven't seen anybody button rifle anything deeper than .004 so the additional depth of the cut rifling in this instance could add some additional life.
 
That's exactly what your barrel is doing when you fire a round. This is what everyone that refers to a break in is actually missing. Steel hardens under pressure and heat, your bore is doing just that. Nitride is an extreme hardening but still the same result, hardness is the cause of fire cracking and throat erosion.
I think you missed my intent, not to ask why it erodes but that it's still going to regardless if a button is being pushed/pulled .
Ray
 
I think the question has been answered, but I'll say it a different way...if there was truly a proven method that was "better", "more accurate" or "last longer", or a particular rifling profile or barrel material that was proven superior that would be the only thing you could buy!!!
I have used them all and I have seen nothing to suggest any one type, material or configuration was "better" than anything else. I will also say that the barrel making world has it's share of gimmicks that accomplish zero.
 
I can picture hammer forging affecting barrel life, possibly increasing.
You could ask Lothar Walther about this.

You may not know it, but LW is fully capable of all things barrel-making.
Anything you could dream up -for the $$$.

I have heard Lothar Walther barrels last longer, but it is very hard to compare them in this discussion because they utilize their own proprietary LW50 stainless steel alloy for their barrels which is much harder than 416. Even their Chrome Moly barrels are made from their own alloy design. Some gunsmiths will not chamber LW barrels because their alloys are too hard on tooling.

So once again, we are back to the composition of the steel for barrel life. Nothing to do with the method to produce the grooves...
 
Preface: I have no first hand experience with cut rifling of my own.

I have read and heard that cut rifled barrels last "longer" than button rifled barrels. So my question is, does cut rifling add real longevity to the life of a barrel or is it just perceived?

I will throw this post off course by saying I doubt most people here care how long a barrel lasts. It's all about how well they can make it shoot.
However if you started another post on that subject most of the answers would be the same.
I don' see how any of these steps could be exactly the same in say 1 out of 10 barrels produced.

Cryogenic treatment of steel blanks
Pre-contour Barrels on CNC lathe
Drilling Barrels
Finish Turning on CNC lathe
Reaming
Cut Rifling
Hand Lapping
Cut Rifling
Finish Lapping
Don
 
I will throw this post off course by saying I doubt most people here care how long a barrel lasts. It's all about how well they can make it shoot.
However if you started another post on that subject most of the answers would be the same.
I don' see how any of these steps could be exactly the same in say 1 out of 10 barrels produced.

Cryogenic treatment of steel blanks
Pre-contour Barrels on CNC lathe
Drilling Barrels
Finish Turning on CNC lathe
Reaming
Cut Rifling
Hand Lapping
Cut Rifling
Finish Lapping
Don



Do what?
 

Butch -
I wonder. Some people talk about erosion or chasing the lands, if that was the only factor of wear you could rechamber a barrel until it was a shorty. Why do people change barrels instead of a setback? If the complete barrel wears and looses accuracy then the thing I listed might come into play. A difference in hardness, how it was drilled, lapped etc. Could effect barrel life and accuracy. I know in that 30 foot long bar of steel that's going to become barrels sometimes there is a section somewhere that is going to become scrap because of issues. Do some barrels have a grain or inconsistency of hardness. I don't know, I just wonder.
Don
 
Butch -
I wonder. Some people talk about erosion or chasing the lands, if that was the only factor of wear you could rechamber a barrel until it was a shorty. Why do people change barrels instead of a setback? If the complete barrel wears and looses accuracy then the thing I listed might come into play. A difference in hardness, how it was drilled, lapped etc. Could effect barrel life and accuracy. I know in that 30 foot long bar of steel that's going to become barrels sometimes there is a section somewhere that is going to become scrap because of issues. Do some barrels have a grain or inconsistency of hardness. I don't know, I just wonder.
Don
Many times barrels perform better after a setback.


Ray
 
I don't shoot Benchrest, F Class or FTR, so I know very little to nothing about when a barrel is considered worn out for those uses by those that shoot those disciplines.

I only know AR15 Service rifles and I have personally worn out around a dozen 20" barrels since 2003 when I got started in full distance ( 200 - 300 and 600 yard ) matches. Prior to that I was a 200 yard reduced course shooter for 2 years.

When I was shooting a lot of matches and practicing heavy from 2007 - 2009 working to earn my Distinguished Rifleman Badge i would go thru around 6000 rounds a year. ( I legged out and earned badge #1970 in 2009 at the age of 59 with an AR15 before 4.5 power scopes were legal to use )

I am now governor of the range and spend more time working on the range and helping new shooters get started and improve so these years I now only shoot
around 3000 rounds a year

I have went thru mostly White Oak Wilson Button Rifled Barrels and probably wore out around 8 of those. I have also used pac-nor, Kreiger and now Bartlein. All of them have been good to great. Bartlein has been awesome to deal with and the product is top shelf so that is likely all that i will purchase from here on out.

My experience thru all those barrels follows what 99% of other AR15 Service Rifle shooters find.

The $220'ish button rifles Wilson or green Mountain barrels are good for around 3000 rounds and the $450 - $500 Cut rifled barrels are typically good for around 6000 rounds. I don't know why that is the case and i don't concern myself much with why it is. I just know it is...

Simple math says this equals around $.07 - $0.08 cents a round no matter which barrel you choose so they are virtually the same cost per round to use.
The only difference is when or how often you will need to replace the barrel.

I / we service rifle shooters consider barrels like tires or brakes on your car.
They are a wear item and you replace them when you see evidence they need replacing.
Compared to travelling to matches, match fees and ammo the barrel is the lowest cost part of the total picture so most of us don't overthink it.

My experience is also the same as 99% of other service rifle shooters.
Either button or cut rifled they both typically shoot very much equally well until they get to end of life and start costing you points.

We start to know when a barrel is nearing it's end of quality / full distance match life in the 300 yard rapid fire stage and the 600 yard slow fire stage first.
X count drops off, you use more of the 10 ring and start getting 9's ( or worse ) on shots that you are confident you executed well. That is when that barrel will no longer be used in full course matches.

It can and will be used for at least another 3000 or more rounds for 200 yard standing / offhand practice and sitting rapid practice.
That is why most serious service rifle shooters run at least two uppers. http://www.sw-hearing.com/konrad/thoughts/barrels.html


The shooter and the level of Marksmanship skill is always the weak link in Service rifle (and XTC Match Rifle ) where you shoot standing with no sling support and sitting and prone with only sling support.

Long way to respond to a thread asking
Retvet09 asked >>> So my question is, does cut rifling add real longevity to the life of a barrel or is it just perceived? <<<

Just a Service Rifle shooters perspective / response to the question which seems to be different thnt those that have responded in this thread already.

Seem like not many Service Rifle shooters post here so what I typed above may be of little to no interest to most of you here.
Hope helpful to some here..

George Smith
https://nfga.org/high-power-rifle/
https://nfga.org/leveridge-range/

Edited to Add:
There are always outliers with all of them from one extreme to the other.
You will hear report of Wilsons lasting over 10K rounds and still shooting great and reports of Kreigers or Bartleins dying with 1000 rounds or less thru them and visa versa.

I think we all need to keep in mind that the barrel companies are somewhat at the mercy of the quality of the steel they get to work with. I would imagine the quality of the raw material goes up and down from year to year or maybe even more often than that.

I always wondered if you took a worn out barrel or a new barrel and did Rockwell hardness tests every inch of the barrel to see the spread in actual hardness of the 20 reading you would get in a 20" barrel from lot to lot of steel.

But as stated above, to me that would be overthinking it as a shooter.
I keep spare new barrels on the shelf and run 3 uppers. If I loose confidence in any barrel off it comes. Maybe I have removed barrel that are totally fine... So be it, like I said all part of the game as a easily replaceable wear item.

If it's in my head that there is any doubt off it comes.
 
Last edited:
Butch -
I wonder. Some people talk about erosion or chasing the lands, if that was the only factor of wear you could rechamber a barrel until it was a shorty. Why do people change barrels instead of a setback? If the complete barrel wears and looses accuracy then the thing I listed might come into play. A difference in hardness, how it was drilled, lapped etc. Could effect barrel life and accuracy. I know in that 30 foot long bar of steel that's going to become barrels sometimes there is a section somewhere that is going to become scrap because of issues. Do some barrels have a grain or inconsistency of hardness. I don't know, I just wonder.
Don
Because when you set back a chamber you're cutting into a soft steel in relation to the bore, thus encouraging erosion. The soft steel of the new chamber will allow the erosion to effectively chip the hardened bore away at an exponential rate in some cases. In others it's a moot point, but the difference is you can't tell how a barrel is going to react when you cut a new chamber on a hard bore, could go 2000rds or 200rds and it's anyone's guess.
 
Butch -
I wonder. Some people talk about erosion or chasing the lands, if that was the only factor of wear you could rechamber a barrel until it was a shorty. Why do people change barrels instead of a setback? If the complete barrel wears and looses accuracy then the thing I listed might come into play. A difference in hardness, how it was drilled, lapped etc. Could effect barrel life and accuracy. I know in that 30 foot long bar of steel that's going to become barrels sometimes there is a section somewhere that is going to become scrap because of issues. Do some barrels have a grain or inconsistency of hardness. I don't know, I just wonder.
Don


Don, I know a few excellent shooters that set their barrels back at about 1000 rounds and do this several times. Your erosion is at the throat. Keep ahead of this and your barrel will be good for many many rounds. If I have one that doesn't seem right, I will set it back and if it is not up to what I think it should be it goes in the barrel box.
I do believe that the steel, for what ever reason, is a major part in the makeup in the blank. I don't buy the hardness being a factor as I've seen hard and soft steel in very accurate rifles. Retained stress? Most stress relieve their blanks and some twice. Are they stress free, I don't know but suspect some have stress after this.
 
Bar stock from a steel mill is going to have a certain grain to it. When you cut rifle, you cut right up to the grain and don't introduce much stress. When you button rifle, the button pushes the steel out, realigning the grain but introducing a lot of stress.

A good hand lapped cut rifled barrel will be very smooth, cutting up to the grain shouldn't matter after it gets smoothed out.

A good button rifled barrel gets stress relieved but I bet it still has more stress than cut rifled. The button process probably surface hardens the grooves somewhat. I don't know if that has an effect on barrel life but it may.

They both work and some times the life differences are much less than the price differences.

I'm going to look in to QPQ nitriding to see if that is a viable barrel life extender and alternative to black paint.

Hexagonal Boron Nitride (HBN) coated bullets and treated bore might be another barrel life extender and possibly makes cold bore shots hit the same POI as fouled barrel shots so it might let you preserve barrel life by shooting less.
 
Bar stock from a steel mill is going to have a certain grain to it. When you cut rifle, you cut right up to the grain and don't introduce much stress. When you button rifle, the button pushes the steel out, realigning the grain but introducing a lot of stress.

A good hand lapped cut rifled barrel will be very smooth, cutting up to the grain shouldn't matter after it gets smoothed out.

A good button rifled barrel gets stress relieved but I bet it still has more stress than cut rifled. The button process probably surface hardens the grooves somewhat. I don't know if that has an effect on barrel life but it may.

They both work and some times the life differences are much less than the price differences.

I'm going to look in to QPQ nitriding to see if that is a viable barrel life extender and alternative to black paint.

Hexagonal Boron Nitride (HBN) coated bullets and treated bore might be another barrel life extender and possibly makes cold bore shots hit the same POI as fouled barrel shots so it might let you preserve barrel life by shooting less.



Melonite QPQ will greatly increase the life of a rifle barrel. I have used many. I just did a custom rimfire with a Bartlein barrel. It is SS and this is a walnut custom with a 40X CM receiver. I didn't care for the SS look and polished the barrel through 1000X. After Melonite it appears to be a deep rust blued barrel. Years ago tried both HBN and Moly coated bullets and found no advantage and not worth it. I've done a lot with cryo and found most cryo services useless, except the steel machines a little better. I have done this with raw blanks before any machine work, after rifling, and when all operations have been done. Found no help at all with cryo. This lot of 30 barrels were done blind to do a true evaluation.
I saw the above youtube, but does Kreiger cryo any more? Cryo is getting something cold, but how cold does it need to be to have any effect? I'm sure not demeaning Kreiger as they make a very superior barrel.
Remember when a company offered a service to shake a barrel to re leave stress or the company used some type treatment to smooth the inside of their blanks. Blackstar was selling these barrels for a short time.
I think I've tried all of this and a lot of this is a waste of your money. A good custom barrel, properly lapped is best. Melonite is the only thing that I've seen that will extend barrel life.
 

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