Custom BR actions vs Custom Rem. Clones?
- Thread starter Changeling
- Start date
FroggyOne2 said:
Bingo, the correct answer!!! Yes, a correctly trued up rem700 will shoot with a super duper custom polished dipped, stroked and waxed action all day long.....that is of course your barrel is up to it,wink)
The action more or less just holds the case upon firing. Yes, it matters some that everything is trued and square with the bore. IMHO.. but barrels are where most of the game is at.
If this weren't true Tony Boyer wouldn't chamber up 20+ barrels a year to find that hummer barrel.
Long live the Rem 700!!!!!!!!!
The difference between customs and trued factory actions is far more complex the simply accuracy potential. I can, and have turned Remington's into BR competitive rigs, but it requires a TON of work. I'm not just talking about truing the action, but making the bolt cycle as smooth as a BAT, and eject perfectly also. Timing a Remington can be a PITA as well. Now if we are talking about a Varmint rifle, then a bolt doesn't need to cycle perfectly, nor does ejection need to be flawless. But get to the bench with a match on the line and you need to put em' down range in a hurry...your action HAS to perform flawlessly, unless you don't mind finishing in the middle of the pack. Sure, a Remington can be made to perform like a custom, but at what cost? Most of the gunsmiths out there that know how to do a truing job correctly, charge $150 and up for the service. But none will do the real work that is required to make one work as well as a custom, within their "blueprinting" fee. When it's all said and done, you will be way ahead by just biting the bullet and buying a BAT. Another big advantage to the customs is uniform headspace and thread dimensions. Wanna switch barrels from action to action? I have five BAT's that I can simply screw whatever barrel to whichever action I wish...can't do that between trued up factory actions.
Someone earlier in the thread commented that there were maybe 10 people in the world that can tell the difference in accuracy potential between actions...I can assure you that there are many more than that. It takes a Benchrest rifle to ring out the true potential of any accuracy component. There are many BR shooters out there that have struggled to get a rifle to shoot. They change barrel's, scope's, stock's, triggers...nothing seems to help. Not all actions are created equal, even among the customs.
Someone earlier in the thread commented that there were maybe 10 people in the world that can tell the difference in accuracy potential between actions...I can assure you that there are many more than that. It takes a Benchrest rifle to ring out the true potential of any accuracy component. There are many BR shooters out there that have struggled to get a rifle to shoot. They change barrel's, scope's, stock's, triggers...nothing seems to help. Not all actions are created equal, even among the customs.
The goal of any competition rifle, regardless of competition format, is to put the correct number of rounds downrange with repeatable accuracy. Period.
The primary difference between a factory action and a custom action is that the custom action maker tends to more consistantly hold tighter tolerances. The rest is a matter of personnal preference for scope mounting method, trigger hanging preference, preference for the number of lugs and what have you.
The "hold its value" arguement is a wash since I've only sold off a couple of rifles in forty years and those weren't keepers in the first place.
The won't compete arguemant is a wash. A few years back an out of the box Savage in .223 won more than one local bench rest match over in Mississippi rendering the shooter forever unpopular and making a few competitors very unhappy. In a similar vein someone hung a Vais brake on a factory Sendero-SF in .300 Winmag and came in 3rd place at the 1,000 yard nationals as written up by Jacob Gottfriedson in Precision Shooting.
I'm thinking that the primary reason factory rifles aren't used more is that they have a less suitable form factor as much as anything else. And Savage is putting a usable out of the box rifle out there that should finish at least mid pack at most matches.
Equipment snobbery and a negative attitude is what I'm reading in a few posts here. Rather than telling everyone,especially newly starting competitors) that what they have isn't worth much and won't win, why not say that with some tuning and practice what you have should get you to at least mid pack.
There was a post over on Benchrest Central where someone noted that a tactical match had filled all available slots, was turning away more people than it had slots to begin with, had an enormous prize table and everyone competing had a blast. Maybe one reason is the lack of negative commentary by self annointed experts.
The primary difference between a factory action and a custom action is that the custom action maker tends to more consistantly hold tighter tolerances. The rest is a matter of personnal preference for scope mounting method, trigger hanging preference, preference for the number of lugs and what have you.
The "hold its value" arguement is a wash since I've only sold off a couple of rifles in forty years and those weren't keepers in the first place.
The won't compete arguemant is a wash. A few years back an out of the box Savage in .223 won more than one local bench rest match over in Mississippi rendering the shooter forever unpopular and making a few competitors very unhappy. In a similar vein someone hung a Vais brake on a factory Sendero-SF in .300 Winmag and came in 3rd place at the 1,000 yard nationals as written up by Jacob Gottfriedson in Precision Shooting.
I'm thinking that the primary reason factory rifles aren't used more is that they have a less suitable form factor as much as anything else. And Savage is putting a usable out of the box rifle out there that should finish at least mid pack at most matches.
Equipment snobbery and a negative attitude is what I'm reading in a few posts here. Rather than telling everyone,especially newly starting competitors) that what they have isn't worth much and won't win, why not say that with some tuning and practice what you have should get you to at least mid pack.
There was a post over on Benchrest Central where someone noted that a tactical match had filled all available slots, was turning away more people than it had slots to begin with, had an enormous prize table and everyone competing had a blast. Maybe one reason is the lack of negative commentary by self annointed experts.
After re-reading the above, I may have been a little harsh so let me explain a bit.
After retiring from the miltary about twenty years back I decided to get back into some form of competitive shooting. All I could afford to shoot at the time were factory or customized factory based rifles which I already had one hand. All I initially heard in the short range world was "you can't..."and "why bother to show up with that" so I gravitated to long range shooting where no single chambering, action, barrel or scope held sway and was told that I should easily finish mid pack if I minded my Ps and Qs. Very encouraging to a new competitor. Didn't win though, what I had wasn't all that suitable but I had a lot of fun.
Since than I have had built several fully custom rifles, one of which is a multiple match winner. Recently I have picked up a factory 700P for extra trigger time at the few matches I can make given family obligations, hugely increased travel expenses and a heavy work schedule. This off the rack rifle has proven exceptionally accurate and as I develop data and get some practice time in I fully intend to win in class with it in factory original form. This rifle has already finished better than a few fully custom rigs.
Since most shooters that continue to compete eventually gravitiate towards a customized factory rifle and then on to a full custom rifle it's not as if positive commentary will hurt a manufacturer or smiths business.
And yes, if time hadn't been an issue,wanted to have a .308 for the very next weekend) I might have started with either a Remington clone or some other custom action. However the 700 has proven to be more than satisfactory and won't receive any aftermarket work until the barrel is shot out. As it is a .308 that may be awhile.
After retiring from the miltary about twenty years back I decided to get back into some form of competitive shooting. All I could afford to shoot at the time were factory or customized factory based rifles which I already had one hand. All I initially heard in the short range world was "you can't..."and "why bother to show up with that" so I gravitated to long range shooting where no single chambering, action, barrel or scope held sway and was told that I should easily finish mid pack if I minded my Ps and Qs. Very encouraging to a new competitor. Didn't win though, what I had wasn't all that suitable but I had a lot of fun.
Since than I have had built several fully custom rifles, one of which is a multiple match winner. Recently I have picked up a factory 700P for extra trigger time at the few matches I can make given family obligations, hugely increased travel expenses and a heavy work schedule. This off the rack rifle has proven exceptionally accurate and as I develop data and get some practice time in I fully intend to win in class with it in factory original form. This rifle has already finished better than a few fully custom rigs.
Since most shooters that continue to compete eventually gravitiate towards a customized factory rifle and then on to a full custom rifle it's not as if positive commentary will hurt a manufacturer or smiths business.
And yes, if time hadn't been an issue,wanted to have a .308 for the very next weekend) I might have started with either a Remington clone or some other custom action. However the 700 has proven to be more than satisfactory and won't receive any aftermarket work until the barrel is shot out. As it is a .308 that may be awhile.
Rust, I choose to shoot short range Benchrest. I really don't have a clue what it takes to win in other disciplines. But I do know what it takes to win at short range Benchrest. Do you honestly believe that day in and day out, the average factory Savage will compete against full custom race guns? If so, then I would bet you have never shot a competitive BR rifle.
Tighneck - I'm aware of what a decent short range bench rest rig will do for a group, a match agg and over an entire season, especially in the hands of an expert competitor. I actually know some folks. But the two instances previously mentioned are true. Rare exceptions of course, but there will always be an exception given a large enough sample.
Now one of my fully custom rigs is not exactly built the same as a short range rig because shooting VLDs is a little problematic. But they are built every bit as well as any short range rig. But the factory 700 in question is pretty accurate and perhaps as importantly is very consistant over a 20 round string.
The difference is with my favorite custom I've won matches and can reasonably expect to win more if I do my part, while with the 700 I HOPE to win a match if I get good conditions on my relay, call the wind correctly, my dope is good for the day and I get a little lucky. It is entirely possible. And that would be very satisfying indeed and allow me to annoy a great many people which would be very nearly as satisfying.
But win or loose, I shoot with an absolutely great bunch of folks with a wealth of knowledge and pretty darn good BBQ, and enjoy being there so much occasionally someone has to remind me it's my relay. More folks,noobs) should have that sort of fun which is why I get irate over the non-encouraging equipment talk sometimes.
Now one of my fully custom rigs is not exactly built the same as a short range rig because shooting VLDs is a little problematic. But they are built every bit as well as any short range rig. But the factory 700 in question is pretty accurate and perhaps as importantly is very consistant over a 20 round string.
The difference is with my favorite custom I've won matches and can reasonably expect to win more if I do my part, while with the 700 I HOPE to win a match if I get good conditions on my relay, call the wind correctly, my dope is good for the day and I get a little lucky. It is entirely possible. And that would be very satisfying indeed and allow me to annoy a great many people which would be very nearly as satisfying.
But win or loose, I shoot with an absolutely great bunch of folks with a wealth of knowledge and pretty darn good BBQ, and enjoy being there so much occasionally someone has to remind me it's my relay. More folks,noobs) should have that sort of fun which is why I get irate over the non-encouraging equipment talk sometimes.
Since PTG came out with replacement bolts and Tannel and others sell the truing tooling and bolt bore reamers its harder to justify a custom action for anything except BR or a Large Magnum Case like the .338 Lapua. The drop port and dual port are a bit of an advantage in BR and the smoothness does help with running a group as you are less likely to disturb your setup. You can make a Remington just as smooth as a custom especially with the PTG bolt.
There is one thing I don't like about the custom stainless actions and its galling I have seen too many expensive stainless custom actions with the lugs galled. When asking how it happened you get a mirad of reasons from hot rounds, a little dirt, chambering an undersized case in to not enough lube. I don't feel enough has been done regarding the durability issue.
There is one thing I don't like about the custom stainless actions and its galling I have seen too many expensive stainless custom actions with the lugs galled. When asking how it happened you get a mirad of reasons from hot rounds, a little dirt, chambering an undersized case in to not enough lube. I don't feel enough has been done regarding the durability issue.
When it's all said and done, you will be way ahead by just biting the bullet and buying a BAT. Another big advantage to the customs is uniform headspace and thread dimensions. Wanna switch barrels from action to action? I have five BAT's that I can simply screw whatever barrel to whichever action I wish...can't do that between trued up factory actions. Tightneck
Ohhhhh yes...! Big Ahmen.!
HUGE advantage!
Custom every time!
cale
Ohhhhh yes...! Big Ahmen.!
HUGE advantage!
Custom every time!
cale
I better go ahead and apologize first, because everything I say from here will be considered stupid.
1.) Full custom or cloned factory, to me, is kind of like going to the prom with the head cheerleader. You can show up in a Lincoln Town car or a Toyota. Once the car is parked it doesn't matter, it's about how well you dance.
2.) As a shooter, I'm average at best. I know some very good shooters. It's the human factor that makes them good shooters. They do their part right, custom or clone. I personally believe that a full custom or a clone that is tuned properly will be more accurate than any person shooting them. So, re-enter the human factor.
This has been a very interesting thread and a topic that will be considered long after we are too old to see through a scope. In all honesty, I'd LOVE to have a full blown custom rig. Would I shoot better? Probably not, but I'd be happier. I value quality, I'm an engineer. I do have to live within my means. If one could point a custom and a clone at the exact same spot without any human interaction, I'd predict that we would see two very very tight groups. Maybe even discernable. Now if we inject the human factor and do the same, I'm sure we'd still see two very good groups, but not as tight as the purely mechanically shot groups. Let us not forget that many times we deal with becoming more precise/accurate by tweaking mechanical things instead of tweaking ourselves.
I'm done.....sorry.
Cwood3
"I don't know what I like, but I know art."
1.) Full custom or cloned factory, to me, is kind of like going to the prom with the head cheerleader. You can show up in a Lincoln Town car or a Toyota. Once the car is parked it doesn't matter, it's about how well you dance.
2.) As a shooter, I'm average at best. I know some very good shooters. It's the human factor that makes them good shooters. They do their part right, custom or clone. I personally believe that a full custom or a clone that is tuned properly will be more accurate than any person shooting them. So, re-enter the human factor.
This has been a very interesting thread and a topic that will be considered long after we are too old to see through a scope. In all honesty, I'd LOVE to have a full blown custom rig. Would I shoot better? Probably not, but I'd be happier. I value quality, I'm an engineer. I do have to live within my means. If one could point a custom and a clone at the exact same spot without any human interaction, I'd predict that we would see two very very tight groups. Maybe even discernable. Now if we inject the human factor and do the same, I'm sure we'd still see two very good groups, but not as tight as the purely mechanically shot groups. Let us not forget that many times we deal with becoming more precise/accurate by tweaking mechanical things instead of tweaking ourselves.
I'm done.....sorry.
Cwood3
"I don't know what I like, but I know art."
cwood3 said:
Cwood3, not stupid at all, but obviously written by someone who doesn't know the difference between the two. Pretty typical actually. I couldn't tell you how many times Ive heard words like..."I'm just an average shooter anyway, so I could never tell the difference". Truth is that without equipment that can perform at the highest levels, you will never know what kind of shooter you really are. And thats just fine, no one is forcing custom actions on you or anyone else. But those that have gone down both roads KNOW what they are giving up when they head to the line.
This is a pretty funny thread
No matter which way you go when you start if you shoot long enough you will be selling equipment. If you have a rifle and the heart of the rifle is the action and it is a BP'd Remmy then you have killed a very large percentage of your resale market and that is a fact.
Just a thought to consider because as a whole BR shooters tend to play show and tell as well as shoot.
No matter which way you go when you start if you shoot long enough you will be selling equipment. If you have a rifle and the heart of the rifle is the action and it is a BP'd Remmy then you have killed a very large percentage of your resale market and that is a fact. Just a thought to consider because as a whole BR shooters tend to play show and tell as well as shoot.
For what it is worth, here is my $.02. My primary interest 20 years ago was Bullseye pistol. Different discipline, but what I was taught should hold up.
When I was starting out I couldn't afford much,still can't). I had some good mentors that helped steer me to GOOD ENTRY level guns. This was the key. They were on the lower end of cost but they shot better than I did. As I improved, I improved the accurizing of the gun so the gun was always better than I was.
If you have a flyer, it is always easy to blame the gun. If it shoots better than you, then you look to where you went wrong.
My point is quite simple. If you want to get into the game, start out small, especially if you are on a budget. Your skill level won't be at where the top level guys are at anyways. Work your way up. Does it really matter if you start out with the best? I would much rather be out shooting at a match and place last than be at home still saving money to buy a better gun. The better gun will come someday. But that's just me.
Most of the people in the shooting fraternity have been the BEST people I've ever met. They started out at the bottom and worked up and most will help you improve your equipment and skills.
And yes, I do agree that the custom actions are far superior and the resale is higher. Not all of us can do it that way. My hat is off to those of you that can.
Buy what you can afford and go have fun.
When I was starting out I couldn't afford much,still can't). I had some good mentors that helped steer me to GOOD ENTRY level guns. This was the key. They were on the lower end of cost but they shot better than I did. As I improved, I improved the accurizing of the gun so the gun was always better than I was.
If you have a flyer, it is always easy to blame the gun. If it shoots better than you, then you look to where you went wrong.
My point is quite simple. If you want to get into the game, start out small, especially if you are on a budget. Your skill level won't be at where the top level guys are at anyways. Work your way up. Does it really matter if you start out with the best? I would much rather be out shooting at a match and place last than be at home still saving money to buy a better gun. The better gun will come someday. But that's just me.
Most of the people in the shooting fraternity have been the BEST people I've ever met. They started out at the bottom and worked up and most will help you improve your equipment and skills.
And yes, I do agree that the custom actions are far superior and the resale is higher. Not all of us can do it that way. My hat is off to those of you that can.
Buy what you can afford and go have fun.
This coming from a shooter but not competitive BR, I own two BR rifles. One is a 6 X 47 Shehane built on a Borden Rimrock action and the other a 6BR built on a Savage target action. From what I have seen so far from both of the rifles, the Borden action rifle is superior. But, it cost more too. With that being said, I can take either rifle to my little 800 yd. spot in the woods and shoot and enjoy which ever one I have with me. I guess if I were shooting competition it would be a different situation.
Point is, as already mentioned get what you can afford and shoot it and be happy. Just as information, I had my Savage 6BR built after I purchased my 6 X 47 Shehane. But I don't look at it like I went downhill. I purchased what I could afford at the time and I am content with it. Shooting is suppose to be fun and not some sort of brain wrecking nerve racking thing we do. Bill
Point is, as already mentioned get what you can afford and shoot it and be happy. Just as information, I had my Savage 6BR built after I purchased my 6 X 47 Shehane. But I don't look at it like I went downhill. I purchased what I could afford at the time and I am content with it. Shooting is suppose to be fun and not some sort of brain wrecking nerve racking thing we do. Bill
CJ6
Silver $$ Contributor
When you say REM CLONES VS FULL CUSTOM it's the same thing. Stiller makes the Predator,Rem Clone) and Viper both FULL Custom actions.Borden,Lawton,Nesika etc. Just because a company makes a Repeater with a Rem footprint,not all actions mentioned above have the Rem footprint)doesn't mean it's not a full custom action.
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