Given that a Remington action that is properly set up trued/blueprinted has the potential to shoot as well as any custom action, how does the Custom clones,bolt in for Rem pattern) of the Remington action made by several top manufacturers compare to an all out competition action only for phases of BR shooting such as 300/600/1000 yd competition?
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Custom BR actions vs Custom Rem. Clones?
- Thread starter Changeling
- Start date
I am currently shooting a trued 40X action and so is my one shooting associate. Both are killer acurrate, you couldn't ask for more at 600 or 1K ranges. We just came off a 600 yd shoot and he recorded 15Xs out of 20 shots and I went 12. So they do shoot.
That said, if I was looking at a custom action I would head in the direction of an action with more than two lugs. Bat three lug, RPA Quadlock or Quadlite, also the Barnard.
Take a look at any winning Palma rifle and you will see bolts with three or four lugs. These are serious 1000 yd rifles and the majority are built on this type of action.
Just my thoughts.
Bob
That said, if I was looking at a custom action I would head in the direction of an action with more than two lugs. Bat three lug, RPA Quadlock or Quadlite, also the Barnard.
Take a look at any winning Palma rifle and you will see bolts with three or four lugs. These are serious 1000 yd rifles and the majority are built on this type of action.
Just my thoughts.
Bob
The current NRA Longrange Highpower 1000 yd. record is 200x19X. It was fired in a trued Rem 700 action.
There is also the investment/value to consider..
Half measures and cut corners might git-r-done, but they offer no value.
Nearly every action has won in some competition or another, so that doesn't mean anything.
You could probably choose any action in the world, put a great barrel on it, and be as prepared to compete as half the field.
But if you're going to invest thousands into a new gun, it's resultant value might be important to you.
The action sets the value. It's the gun.
And remington actions & clones are nearly worthless. The market is saturated with 'customs' of this type. Your gun built around one is just another and nearly worthless, regardless of it's performance.
So it immediately becomes a money pit, with every invested component loosing value -while connected to a Remington.
Now start out with a BAT or Stiller,actually having value on their own), and your combination of components add to overall value. Your final product will ALWAYS be worth more. Yet your investment was nearly the same.
Performance might be your focus, and in that event a Remington or even better, a Savage would do well.
But if you invest alot of money into guns, or plan to, eventually you will consider value.
Just a different perspective.
Half measures and cut corners might git-r-done, but they offer no value.
Nearly every action has won in some competition or another, so that doesn't mean anything.
You could probably choose any action in the world, put a great barrel on it, and be as prepared to compete as half the field.
But if you're going to invest thousands into a new gun, it's resultant value might be important to you.
The action sets the value. It's the gun.
And remington actions & clones are nearly worthless. The market is saturated with 'customs' of this type. Your gun built around one is just another and nearly worthless, regardless of it's performance.
So it immediately becomes a money pit, with every invested component loosing value -while connected to a Remington.
Now start out with a BAT or Stiller,actually having value on their own), and your combination of components add to overall value. Your final product will ALWAYS be worth more. Yet your investment was nearly the same.
Performance might be your focus, and in that event a Remington or even better, a Savage would do well.
But if you invest alot of money into guns, or plan to, eventually you will consider value.
Just a different perspective.
The primary value of a Rem 700 clone action is that it will fit into a lot of stocks and take accessories made for the 700,which there are a lot of) while giving the performance and hold their value like custom actions should. If you want a repeater, ie. detachable box magazine, go with the Rem clone. If you only shoot one at a time and want them all in the same hole get something with more mass in the action, bigger around and with fewer holes.
Just a mild observation based on personal delusions. DC
Just a mild observation based on personal delusions. DC
Me and Bert Medina, were having a conversation one day, we both feel that there are maybe 5-10 ppl in the world that can tell truly the accuracy difference between rifle actions.
Me too. To call a Remington or Remington clone worthless is a huge stretch of the imagination.gunamonth said:Sorry but I have to take exception with that. In my opinion a Borden Alpine or Stiller Predator will hold as high a percentage of it's initial cost as a Diamondback or Rimrock. Just me of course but I'd be willing to spend a fair chunk of change on a used Alpine or Predator based rifle, just to get the action.
Got an axe to grind, Mike?
This is a point made many times but bears repeating.
If you had a Rem action already in hand, you can afford to spend some cash to have it trued up and build your rifle around it. Truing a Rem is a lot easier and cheaper than it used to be with all the "truing tools for amatures" that are available now.
Starting from scratch with an empty hand, I would go the custom action. Peace of mind and resale value would be the driving factors.
I am referring to single shot rifles as I have ZERO experience building a repeater on a bolt gun.
Bob
If you had a Rem action already in hand, you can afford to spend some cash to have it trued up and build your rifle around it. Truing a Rem is a lot easier and cheaper than it used to be with all the "truing tools for amatures" that are available now.
Starting from scratch with an empty hand, I would go the custom action. Peace of mind and resale value would be the driving factors.
I am referring to single shot rifles as I have ZERO experience building a repeater on a bolt gun.
Bob
No axe to grind..
I just can't stop yawning over all the remington based customs on the market. That's all.
It's boring, and not what I'd personally poor alot of money around. Down the road, you pull the scope & try to sell it..
~$1,000 is all it's worth, regardless of how much you dumped into it. Afterall, for a couple hundred more anyone could get a brand new Remington and fiddle with it.
It's the same with Hotrods. Dump 20K into a Nova, it's worth maybe 4K. Restore a Superduty Trans Am, win every show & sell it to a sheik for 100K.
I just can't stop yawning over all the remington based customs on the market. That's all.
It's boring, and not what I'd personally poor alot of money around. Down the road, you pull the scope & try to sell it..
~$1,000 is all it's worth, regardless of how much you dumped into it. Afterall, for a couple hundred more anyone could get a brand new Remington and fiddle with it.
It's the same with Hotrods. Dump 20K into a Nova, it's worth maybe 4K. Restore a Superduty Trans Am, win every show & sell it to a sheik for 100K.
Bob3700 said:If you had a Rem action already in hand, you can afford to spend some cash to have it trued up and build your rifle around it...
Starting from scratch with an empty hand, I would go the custom action. Peace of mind and resale value would be the driving factors.
The last time I was in that situation--had a Remington in hand and wanted to build something--I sold the rifle and bought a BAT. My first two customs were trued Remingtons and I don't want any more of them.
A trued Remington may shoot as well as a custom, but it will always look and feel like a Remington. I'll take the custom every time.
rstreich said:Bob3700 said:If you had a Rem action already in hand, you can afford to spend some cash to have it trued up and build your rifle around it...
Starting from scratch with an empty hand, I would go the custom action. Peace of mind and resale value would be the driving factors.
The last time I was in that situation--had a Remington in hand and wanted to build something--I sold the rifle and bought a BAT. My first two customs were trued Remingtons and I don't want any more of them.
A trued Remington may shoot as well as a custom, but it will always look and feel like a Remington. I'll take the custom every time.
______________________________________________________________
The last two sentences you wrote struck me as being a little funny. "A trued Remington may shoot as well as a custom, but it will always look and feel like a Remington. I'll take the custom every time."
The competitive games that are played are about shooting the best scores or the smallest groups. There are no points for the most expensive rifle or the best looking rig. Regardless of cost, I want the best performing rifle I can put on the line. There are no points for Pedigree!
Bob
Bob3700 said:The last two sentences you wrote struck me as being a little funny. "A trued Remington may shoot as well as a custom, but it will always look and feel like a Remington. I'll take the custom every time."
The competitive games that are played are about shooting the best scores or the smallest groups. There are no points for the most expensive rifle or the best looking rig. Regardless of cost, I want the best performing rifle I can put on the line. There are no points for Pedigree!
Yeah, so? Hence the first clause in the first sentence: A trued Remington may shoot as well as a custom, ....
Besides, feel does have a direct correlation with performance in some competitions. Personally, I haven't seen a trued-up Remington that cycled as smoothly as the custom actions. Some of the BR shooters may have seen some, but I haven't.
BTW, have you ever seen some of the paint jobs on some of the BR rifles? Not a lot of performance enhancement in those, but I'm sure they're a big boost to the owner's pride.
johara1 said:if you build a gun based on resale value, your going to take a bath with a rem or a bat or any other...........jim
Absolutely. But if you compare the prices, you'll find that the difference in price more than makes up for the extra that you spent for the custom action.
Yeah? And a Mustang GT500 with the Shelby supercharger,http://www.kennebell.net/superchargers/ford/Shelby/Shelby.htm) will still look and feel like a Mustang. At this point, we are merely talking about personal preference. No more, no less.Bob3700 said:A trued Remington may shoot as well as a custom, but it will always look and feel like a Remington. I'll take the custom every time.
"Besides, feel does have a direct correlation with performance in some competitions. Personally, I haven't seen a trued-up Remington that cycled as smoothly as the custom actions. Some of the BR shooters may have seen some, but I haven't."
FEEL is extremely important........If you don't think Benchrest Shooting isn't 80% a head game, you must be better than most. The best shooters can simply "turn off the hype", but most can't. Most shooters love the "stuff" as much as they like shooting! And if they "think" something they are using and/or doing is improving their score, it will!
FEEL is extremely important........If you don't think Benchrest Shooting isn't 80% a head game, you must be better than most. The best shooters can simply "turn off the hype", but most can't. Most shooters love the "stuff" as much as they like shooting! And if they "think" something they are using and/or doing is improving their score, it will!
I was in this boat, true my Remi or buy custom. I bought custom and the feel of that action is night and day compared to a remington, Im not sorry about the x-tra money. Save longer if thats what you need to do but get a good custom action. They feel so much better and you might even shoot better with the confidence of knowing you have the best. Dont get me wrong I like Remington,for hunting).
Changeling said:Given that a Remington action that is properly set up trued/blueprinted has the potential to shoot as well as any custom action, how does the Custom clones,bolt in for Rem pattern) of the Remington action made by several top manufacturers compare to an all out competition action only for phases of BR shooting such as 300/600/1000 yd competition?
There will be little gained between these actions for this format excluding looks, and pride of ownership. They all have the ability to shoot well enough to win.
If there was ONE action that could dominate, it would be the only action being used and everything else would be clones of it.
The only thing that might be gained by a 'true' BR action is the ability to function at goofy pressure levels. Personally, I don't believe in shooting ammo at proof pressures levels on a continuous basis.
Where I spend most of my rifle building funds is in BARRELS properly installed. This is the one thing that truly makes or breaks my ability to shoot accurately.
And accurate barrels don't last that long.
Jerry
PS I compete in F class using a Stevens action. My rigs shoot in the 1/4min range so these actions work for me.
Dans40X
Welder
Investing the time & money into a Remington action for serious competitive shooting is a fruitless effort.
All the aftermarket parts &/or trueing/sleeving in the world will not turn it into a Ferrari.
Considering the Rem Clone actions-if the action requires a Remington pattern trigger group-I'll pass.
Swing the bolt,break the trigger on a Barnard P-O2 action & shoot the ultimate action/trigger.
What ever action/rifle you decide to build/shoot it will not drive itself.
All the aftermarket parts &/or trueing/sleeving in the world will not turn it into a Ferrari.
Considering the Rem Clone actions-if the action requires a Remington pattern trigger group-I'll pass.
Swing the bolt,break the trigger on a Barnard P-O2 action & shoot the ultimate action/trigger.
What ever action/rifle you decide to build/shoot it will not drive itself.
The price of a truly custom rifle is the major turn-off to new people in the sport. They feel they cannot be competitive unless they have the very best. Meaning a custom action built rifle of your choice.
This kept me from competing for years. I now have my custom rifle, and am glad I built it. But it took everything I had. It was worth the sacrafice to me.
People like Teo have shown us you can wring extreme accuracy from a humble Stevens action. After watching "Team Savage" set a few national F-class records with stock,yes they really are) Savage rifles on our .5 M.O.A targets. It makes me wonder.
This kept me from competing for years. I now have my custom rifle, and am glad I built it. But it took everything I had. It was worth the sacrafice to me.
People like Teo have shown us you can wring extreme accuracy from a humble Stevens action. After watching "Team Savage" set a few national F-class records with stock,yes they really are) Savage rifles on our .5 M.O.A targets. It makes me wonder.
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