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Copper issue.

Barrel makers use coarser grit than you might expect to put the final finish on their barrels. If you polish with fine grit, to a finish that is too smooth, you will make the problem worse.
I had this very converstion today with a fellow shooter go figure this was the nxt plan of attack but how course was our delema.
I do like to try fix issues myself if I can sending this barrel back will be a timely procces so I realy dont care if I ruin it trying to fix it Im thinking of just buying another barrel anyway.

Cheers Trev
 
I'm betting if you tell them you polished the barrel they probably won't take it back, but can't hurt to try.
 
these are the only bullets shot through this barrel from break in to 180 rounds they were purchased when barrel was chambered .
I havnt shot these bullets in any other rifle.

Cheers Trev.
I was asking about the bulletts because it could be a bad lot. I would at least try another bullet. I'd bet it's something in the barrel but trying another bullet would answer that.

I had a similar problem with my 358 Norma due to the velocities I was running, 3,200 FPS. Some bullets fouled like crazy, some just a little and others had no problems.

My barrel is a McGowan custom, lapped. I've shot 20 round strings with Hornady with zero issues. I believe Nosler gave me a bit of a problem, Barnes were a non-starter.
 
I was asking about the bulletts because it could be a bad lot. I would at least try another bullet. I'd bet it's something in the barrel but trying another bullet would answer that.

I had a similar problem with my 358 Norma due to the velocities I was running, 3,200 FPS. Some bullets fouled like crazy, some just a little and others had no problems.

My barrel is a McGowan custom, lapped. I've shot 20 round strings with Hornady with zero issues. I believe Nosler gave me a bit of a problem, Barnes were a non-starter.
I have some 230 atips I will try them tomorrow and see how they go.

Cheers Trev
 
If I were you - I'd go to David Tubb's website and buy a "final finish kit", consisting of coated bullets you can load and shoot to smooth the offending metal. I have used these in a few rifles that were terrible copper collectors and it helped both. One was a Ruger Varmint that is super accurate but terrible to clean. Far easier now to clean - and as accurate as it was before I shot the polish bullets. I though I'd do it and if they messed up the barrels - that would give me good excuse to replace them - which proved to be an invalid concern. Best $40.00 spent on those rifles.
 
If I were you - I'd go to David Tubb's website and buy a "final finish kit", consisting of coated bullets you can load and shoot to smooth the offending metal. I have used these in a few rifles that were terrible copper collectors and it helped both. One was a Ruger Varmint that is super accurate but terrible to clean. Far easier now to clean - and as accurate as it was before I shot the polish bullets. I though I'd do it and if they messed up the barrels - that would give me good excuse to replace them - which proved to be an invalid concern. Best $40.00 spent on those rifles.
I shall check that out .

Cheers Trev.
 
Copper fouling usually originates at the throat, much more so than the barrel itself. The bullet jacket becomes upset from the start and that displaced copper becomes suspended during combustion. As pressure and flame temp drops, it re-deposits along much of the length of the bbl. Think along the lines of what "copper wash" at the muzzle looks like.
 
Copper fouling usually originates at the throat, much more so than the barrel itself. The bullet jacket becomes upset from the start and that displaced copper becomes suspended during combustion. As pressure and flame temp drops, it re-deposits along much of the length of the bbl. Think along the lines of what "copper wash" at the muzzle looks like.
So are you saying there could be an issue in the throat maybe.
I was thinking of shortniing the barrel as its 34in long get it rechambered an knock a few inches off the end.

Cheers Trev.
 
yes I have borescope it looks fine the barrel is a ultra match barrel it looks just like my comp barrels inside and this is what has me stummped.
I borescope all my barrels before I get them chambered use same gunsmith who does fine work.

Cheers Trev.
Good idea to scope before chambering. I had a barrel with a problem and had to eat the gunsmithing.
 
Copper fouling usually originates at the throat, much more so than the barrel itself. The bullet jacket becomes upset from the start and that displaced copper becomes suspended during combustion. As pressure and flame temp drops, it re-deposits along much of the length of the bbl. Think along the lines of what "copper wash" at the muzzle looks like.
This is a very good point and spot on!

Paul
 
This is a very good point and spot on!

Paul
I agree, in a really good barrel and proper break-in can usually solve that problem. I've had a rifle where the barrels were so rough you could follow the copper down the entire 22" length. But, it shot acceptably.
 
Copper fouling usually originates at the throat, much more so than the barrel itself. The bullet jacket becomes upset from the start and that displaced copper becomes suspended during combustion. As pressure and flame temp drops, it re-deposits along much of the length of the bbl. Think along the lines of what "copper wash" at the muzzle looks like.
So, would setting back, rechambering, or throating out a little further fix this issue? Is there a fix at this point?
 
So, would setting back, rechambering, or throating out a little further fix this issue? Is there a fix at this point?
If the throat is rough, then yes, it very well can, along with a proper break in. I prefer not to diagnose a barrel I've not seen though. I would evaluate it end to end, try different bullets and base my decision on what I see and find firsthand, and I'm not afraid to properly cast lead laps and lap the bore, on my own barrels. Just did it a few weeks ago. Set a barrel back that had a ton of rounds down it, and lapped with 320 ao. It had stopped shooting and started coppering pretty bad.
Won the 200 and 3rd overall at UBR Nats with it.
 
It would seem there is a lot of bullet interference with the bore.
If you can't get help from the maker or a local; measure, cast it or slug the barrel to establish the true size.
LC
 
I shot 30 230 Atips through it and had far less copper than the 230 Hybrids but off to the gunsmith soon to check barrel.
He has a new reamer with 30 degrre shoulder may run that through it and see how it goes.
Just a thought would the amount of grooves affect long bearing surface ?
I also noticed copper in the throat well before the bullet would contact any rifling have not seen that before and looking while cleaning carbon where your carbon ring would be just above that is as jagged as geuss from heat/flame.

Cheers Trev.
 
A buddy sent me this from his .308; it sure does shoot good. Im convinced we could scrape a penny’s worth of copper out of it.
 

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So, what is “proper break in.”
I like Krieger's process but ultimately, I look for copper fouling to drastically fall off after a few 1shot and clean steps, on most barrels.

I read several years ago about S&W having trouble with the top strap of their then new 500 S&W Mag revolvers being flame cut while firing the gun. Their solution was to polish the inside of the top strap of the frame. Now, think about that! Smoothing out the rough finish drastically changes how the flame travels over the steel, and thus it's heat sink properties. I often describe it as waving a torch over a bandsaw cut piece of steel with or without a sharp burr. Knock that burr off and the flame flows over the part. Leave it and the burr will glow red quickly. That, IMHO, is a lot of what barrel break in does..and you only get one chance to do it right. If the flame is doing most of the work, once copper builds up on a rough area of the throat, it'll shield that area from the flame. If you continue shooting,..say 3 of the 4 lands break in but the one that collects the copper doesn't break in at the same rate, so you have one land that was shielded and worn less than the other 3. You'll never get that back.

This is long but good, from Krieger's website. Friction is part of it but I belive heat..the actual flame..does most of the work of smoothing the throat.

BREAK-IN & CLEANING:​

With any premium barrel that has been finish lapped -- such as your Krieger Barrel --, the lay or direction of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, so fouling is minimal compared to a barrel with internal tooling marks. This is true of any properly finish-lapped barrel regardless of how it is rifled. If it is not finish-lapped, there will be reamer marks left in the bore that are directly across the direction of the bullet travel. This occurs even in a button-rifled barrel as the button cannot completely iron out these reamer marks.

Because the lay of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, very little is done to the bore during break-in, but the throat is another story. When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file.

When the bullet is forced into the throat, copper dust is removed from the jacket material and released into the gas which at this temperature and pressure is actually a plasma. The copper dust is vaporized in this plasma and is carried down the barrel. As the gas expands and cools, the copper comes out of suspension and is deposited in the bore. This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat.

If this copper is allowed to stay in the bore, and subsequent bullets and deposits are fired over it, copper which adheres well to itself, will build up quickly and may be difficult to remove later. So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat “polished without allowing copper to build up in the bore. This is the reasoning for the fire-one-shot-and-clean procedure.

Every barrel will vary slightly in how many rounds they take to break in For example a chrome moly barrel may take longer to break in than stainless steel because it is more abrasion resistant even though it is a similar hardness. Also chrome moly has a little more of an affinity for copper than stainless steel so it will usually show a little more color if you are using a chemical cleaner. Rim Fire barrels can take an extremely long time to break in, sometimes requiring several hundred rounds or more. But cleaning can be lengthened to every 25-50 rounds. The break-in procedure and the cleaning procedure are really the same except for the frequency. Remember the goal is to get or keep the barrel clean while breaking in the throat with bullets being fired over it.

Finally, the best way to tell if the barrel is broken in is to observe the patches; i.e. when the fouling is reduced. This is better than some set number of cycles of shoot and clean as many owners report practically no fouling after the first few shots, and more break-in would be pointless. Conversely, if more is required, a set number would not address that either. Besides, cleaning is not a completely benign procedure so it should be done carefully and no more than necessary.

CLEANING:​

This section on cleaning is not intended to be a detailed instruction, but rather to point out a few do's and don'ts. Instructions furnished with bore cleaners, equipment, etc. should be followed unless they would conflict with these do's and don'ts.

You should use a good quality one piece coated cleaning rod with a freely rotating handle and a rod guide that fits both your receiver raceway and the rod snugly. How straight and how snug? The object is to make sure the rod cannot touch the bore. With M14/M1 Garand barrels a good rod and muzzle guide set-up is especially important as all the cleaning must be done from the muzzle. Even slight damage to the barrel crown is extremely detrimental to accuracy.

There are two basic types of bore cleaners, chemical and abrasive. The chemical cleaners are usually a blend of various ingredients including oils, solvents, and ammonia (in copper solvents). The abrasive cleaners generally contain no chemical solvents and are an oil, wax, or grease base with an extremely fine abrasive such as chalk, clay, or gypsum.

We recommend the use of good quality, name brand chemical cleaners on a proper fitting patch/jag combination for your particular bore size and good quality properly sized nylon or bronze brushes.

So what is the proper way to use them? First, not all chemical cleaners are compatible with each other. Some, when used together can cause severe pitting of the barrel, even stainless steel barrels. It is fine to use two different cleaners as long as you completely dry the bore of the first cleaner from the barrel before cleaning with the second. And, of course, never mix them in the same bottle. NOTE: Some copper solvents contain a high percentage of ammonia. This makes them a great copper solvent, but if left in the bore too long, can damage/corrode the steel. Do not leave these chemicals in a bore any longer than 10-15 minutes MAXIMUM! DO NOT EVER use straight ammonia to clean a barrel.

Follow instructions on the bottle as far as soak time, etc. Always clean from the breech whenever possible, pushing the patch up to the muzzle and then back without completely exiting the muzzle. If you exit the muzzle, the rod is going to touch the bore and be dragged back in across the crown followed by the patch or brush. Try to avoid dragging items in and out of the muzzle, it will eventually cause uneven wear of the crown. Accuracy will suffer and this can lead you to believe the barrel is shot out, when in fact, it still may have a lot of serviceable life left. A barrel with a worn or damaged crown can be re-crowned and accuracy will usually return. Have the crown checked by a competent gunsmith before giving up on a barrel that may otherwise be in good condition.

This information is intended to touch on the critical areas of break-in and cleaning and is not intended as a complete, step-by-step guide or recommendation of any product. Use a quality one piece cleaning rod that is either vinyl coated or carbon fiber, a rod guide proper for the action you are cleaning, and chemicals, jags, patches, and brushes that you have determined work best for you. There is no right answer to cleaning products and equipment, however under no circumstances should you use a stainless brush. If you choose to use brushes in your cleaning use only quality bronze phosphor brushes or nylon. Clean them after every use to extend their life. Copper solvents will dissolve a bronze brush rather quickly.

BREAK IN:​

The following is a guide to break-in based on our experience. This is not a hard and fast rule, only a guide. Some barrel, chamber, bullet, primer, powder, pressure, velocity etc. combinations may require more cycles some less. It is a good idea to just observe what the barrel is telling you with its fouling pattern and the patches. But once it is broken in, there is no need to continue breaking it in.



Initially you should perform the shoot-one-shot-and-clean cycle for five shots. If fouling hasn't reduced, fire five more cycles and so on until fouling begins to drop off. At that point shoot three shots before cleaning and observe. If fouling is reduced, fire five shots before cleaning. Do not be alarmed if your seating depth gets longer during break in. This is typical of the “high spots in the throat being knocked down during this procedure. It is not uncommon for throat length to grow .005-.030 from a fresh unfired chamber during break in.

Stainless​

  1. 5-10 one-shot cycles
  2. 1 three-shot cycle
  3. 1 five-shot cycle

Chrome moly​

  1. 5 - 25 - one-shot cycles
  2. 2 - three-shot cycles
  3. 1 - five-shot cycle

 

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