Copper fouling in unfired rifle!?

[jelenko]

^^^THIS^^^
The whole term, "barrel break in" is wrongly termed. It's freakin THROAT break in, assuming premium lapped bbls.

Right. This one is a factory barrel.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Right. This one is a factory barrel.

I might care more on a premium bbl but otherwise, I don't see a difference. Maybe, maybe...on a hammer forged bbl, if the chamber/throat are hammered in when made.

 

[jelenko]

I might care more on a premium bbl but otherwise, I don't see a difference. Maybe, maybe...on a hammer forged bbl, if the chamber/throat are hammered in when made.

Means you would break in the, ahem, throat of premium barrels also?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Means you would break in the, ahem, throat of premium barrels also?

Absofreakinlutely! YES! It's what break in is all about.

I'll go a little further to explain why..
There is probably no way humanly possible to chamber a bbl with a reamer, that leaves ZERO radial tool markrs and/burrs. That's what the flame and heat of break in does. It's not the friction of the bullet. Or I'll say this...It's at least, and probably more than 90% heat/flame that does the work of a proper "throat" break in.

 

[rfd]

And less than 2,000fps

Slow but sure for a 535 grain slick doing a slooooow 1350fps ... not to mention packs a wallop.

 

[Fire Dog]

Slow but sure for a 535 grain slick doing a slooooow 1350fps ... not to mention packs a wallop.

Oh Yea,
I remember my days of foolish youth when I fired my 45-70 Remington rolling block loaded with 500gr cast lineatype bullet into an old 12” stump and having it go all the way through…
This was in the back yard and fortunately the angle was downwards and another 4” of dirt stopped the slug from going through the wooden fence into the neighbours yard…

 

[Janeau]

Selling off a "new" rifle with copper wash on the lands is not cool.

All manufacturer proof test barrel and fire rounds to confirm function. If you received a rifle that do not function that will not be cool. Cleaning every rifle after this will make no sense because of number tested. If there were doing it you will complain about price hike.

Anyway - when you received a rifle it should be cleaned.

 

[JFrank]

I haven't shot it yet, but was surprised at the level of copper after a pretty thorough cleaning.
Not assuming anything until I see groups on paper. My F-Open rifle has a persistant copper fouling and routinely shoots in the 2s.

Yeah sounds like proof firing..
A new throat will shred jackets for a few rounds and send debris down the barrel.
Continue break in, coppering should stop soon

 

[rfd]

All manufacturer proof test barrel and fire rounds to confirm function. If you received a rifle that do not function that will not be cool. Cleaning every rifle after this will make no sense because of number tested. If there were doing it you will complain about price hike.

Anyway - when you received a rifle it should be cleaned.

The point of the matter is not whether a rifle/bbl has been "proofed" or not, it's leaving a dirty bbl (or action - I've seen this, too) and expecting the buyer to accept it "dirty", that's sloppy and shoddy, and should make one suspect of such a manufacturer.

FWIW, I "Lee Shaver" every rifle bbl, no matter what manner of cartridge or bullet it'll get fed with - it works wonders for consistent accuracy before firing the first shot.

Excerpt from “Breaking In a Barrel” by Lee Shaver:

Several years ago, I developed a process for breaking-in barrels for lead
bullet use that eliminated the afternoon of shooting and cleaning with
jacketed bullet. It began because I would occasionally have to get bad
leading out of a barrel for a customer, and when you charge what a
gunsmith must charge to stay in business you don’t want to spend an
afternoon scrubbing the lead out of a customer’s gun. And I’m sure the
customer would rather not pay for said services.

What I learned was that when scrubbing lead out of a barrel, I could run
a tight oily patch through a few times and then take the patch off the
jag. I would then unroll a little 0000 steel wool and cut a piece the size
of the patch. Place that over the patch and then run it all through
together. (The proper fit is when you have to bump the rod a few times
with the palm of your hand to get it started in the bore.) When you
shove that steel wool over a patch through the bore of a badly leaded
barrel, it may sound like paper tearing as the lead is ripped out of the
barrel in a pass or two. I can clean the lead out of the worst barrel in
about ten or fifteen minutes that way, and an average leaded barrel will
be clean in a few strokes.

After using this technique for a while, I began to notice that the rifles
that I was de-leading that way seemed to lead less afterwards, which
got me to thinking. We use fine steel wool on the outside of old guns all
the time to do some cleaning or spot rust removal, and it does not
damage the surface of the steel. It just scrubs it. Which lead me to
consider the fact that we are trying to break in a barrel by smoothing
the surface without cutting, and it seems to me that process would go
much quicker if we used something on the inside of the bore that was
closer to the hardness of the barrel instead of lead or copper. So I
started trying the steel wool and oiled patch technique on new barrels
before shooting them. I use it about as tight as I can get in the bore and
wear out a steel wool pad or two in about 15 minutes, then I go and
shoot the rifle.

How well does it work you might ask? On a few occasions, I have built a
new rifle and taken it to a match without ever having fired the rifle. All
have performed flawlessly in their first match and several times I won
the match or set a record with them. On one occasion, I set a new 300
yard range record with the first 13 shots out of a barrel. This method
has become a service we offer to our customers here in the shop and I
have shared the technique many times with others.

 

[TA17rem]

I like a dirty new barrel on a new rifle, it tells me that it was proof checked. Some gun smiths will do the same and test fire it and put it back on rack and wait for pickup. No big Fauken deal.

 

[243winxb]

That said, this is the first "new" factory barrel I've put a borescope down before I've fired a shot.

When are you going to shoot it? May answer the question on bore condition.

 

[jamesdmock]

Just picked up a new Bergara B14 in .308 and cleaned it before sending any rounds down the tube. I was surprised by the amount of blue on the patches (Patchout and Hoppes Elite), so I ran the borescope down the length. This image is from ~2/3 down the barrel. The leade and first 1/3 of barrel are clean and appear unfired, but there appears to be a crap ton of copper. Not just a patch or two, a good 6" worth all the way around.
Thoughts?

There was copper coating used as a lubricant in several BUTTON rifled barrels to lube the button. This was used by makers like Hart and Shilen, but some have switched to modern lubes for this process. I don't know what Bergara uses, but that is a possibility.

 

[Janeau]

The point of the matter is not whether a rifle/bbl has been "proofed" or not, it's leaving a dirty bbl (or action - I've seen this, too) and expecting the buyer to accept it "dirty", that's sloppy and shoddy, and should make one suspect of such a manufacturer.

FWIW, I "Lee Shaver" every rifle bbl, no matter what manner of cartridge or bullet it'll get fed with - it works wonders for consistent accuracy before firing the first shot.

Excerpt from “Breaking In a Barrel” by Lee Shaver:

Several years ago, I developed a process for breaking-in barrels for lead
bullet use that eliminated the afternoon of shooting and cleaning with
jacketed bullet. It began because I would occasionally have to get bad
leading out of a barrel for a customer, and when you charge what a
gunsmith must charge to stay in business you don’t want to spend an
afternoon scrubbing the lead out of a customer’s gun. And I’m sure the
customer would rather not pay for said services.

What I learned was that when scrubbing lead out of a barrel, I could run
a tight oily patch through a few times and then take the patch off the
jag. I would then unroll a little 0000 steel wool and cut a piece the size
of the patch. Place that over the patch and then run it all through
together. (The proper fit is when you have to bump the rod a few times
with the palm of your hand to get it started in the bore.) When you
shove that steel wool over a patch through the bore of a badly leaded
barrel, it may sound like paper tearing as the lead is ripped out of the
barrel in a pass or two. I can clean the lead out of the worst barrel in
about ten or fifteen minutes that way, and an average leaded barrel will
be clean in a few strokes.

After using this technique for a while, I began to notice that the rifles
that I was de-leading that way seemed to lead less afterwards, which
got me to thinking. We use fine steel wool on the outside of old guns all
the time to do some cleaning or spot rust removal, and it does not
damage the surface of the steel. It just scrubs it. Which lead me to
consider the fact that we are trying to break in a barrel by smoothing
the surface without cutting, and it seems to me that process would go
much quicker if we used something on the inside of the bore that was
closer to the hardness of the barrel instead of lead or copper. So I
started trying the steel wool and oiled patch technique on new barrels
before shooting them. I use it about as tight as I can get in the bore and
wear out a steel wool pad or two in about 15 minutes, then I go and
shoot the rifle.

How well does it work you might ask? On a few occasions, I have built a
new rifle and taken it to a match without ever having fired the rifle. All
have performed flawlessly in their first match and several times I won
the match or set a record with them. On one occasion, I set a new 300
yard range record with the first 13 shots out of a barrel. This method
has become a service we offer to our customers here in the shop and I
have shared the technique many times with others.

Never seen an action dirtied by firing 2-3 rounds in it. Barrel yes..but nothing noticeable until you run a few patches or now the trendy cheap borescope. You are freaking out for nothing - so according to your statement ALL gun manufacturers make you ‘suspect’. Thats nonsense.

 

[TA17rem]

some people just over think things or just to anneal over nothing actually, life must be hard for them.
Usually, a rifle comes with some oil or grease in it, so it has to be cleaned anyway when you take it out of the box. I don't see that as being difficult or a problem. LOL

 

[Shifty6br]

Shoot it.

 

[tommeboy]

That's a hell of a liability if they not so I call B.S. on that. Its also called quality control, gun has to be inspected for function as well as liability might even be a law in books on that as well.

How? A proof load is a high pressure round. Oil on the case simulates this just fine. It has been used ever since cartridges have been used. Just because you have no knowledge in its application does not mean it is a falsity.

Heck there have been a bunch of guns throughout history that used lubed cases as part of the functioning of the weapon. .

 

[TA17rem]

I'm not questioning use of oil or what have you just saying today with all law suits they have to proof test their rifle or handguns.

 

[tommeboy]

Most manufacturers don't test every gun. They batch test most of the time. They will pick several out of the line and test. If there is no problem then the batch passes. Some makers do test every gun. But not all.

 

[rfd]

Never seen an action dirtied by firing 2-3 rounds in it. Barrel yes..but nothing noticeable until you run a few patches or now the trendy cheap borescope. You are freaking out for nothing - so according to your statement ALL gun manufacturers make you ‘suspect’. Thats nonsense.

To each their own. My point is that "proofing" a bbl isn't a bad thing, it's not cleaning up the firearm afterwards that's lacking on the manufacturer's part and does make me suspect of their viability on many levels. If that's nonsense to you then we live in different worlds, do enjoy yours.

 

[Janeau]

To each their own. My point is that "proofing" a bbl isn't a bad thing, it's not cleaning up the firearm afterwards that's lacking on the manufacturer's part and does make me suspect of their viability on many levels. If that's nonsense to you then we live in different worlds, do enjoy yours.

Believe what you believe but no manufacturer live in your imaginary world.