Cooper Arms 1989-2009

[thejamesd]

Welcome to the board Dan. I have a M57 in 22 long rifle that i bought from The Outdoorsman in PA. in 2001,
3 digit serial number. Prettiest rifle I own, and it shoots!
James

 

[Bamaslammer]

thank you sir

Howdy Dan! Politics aside, welcome aboard. Great bunch of guys and gals here.

Wow, what a treat to have the man himself here. I’ve only heard the best about Cooper rifles. Thanks for coming here.

thank you sir

 

[Bamaslammer]

One question I have is this, Where did you source barrels throughout the years? And what are your thoughts on past and current barrel makers.

few more

For the rifles you guys built what did you do for bedding? I would imagine the guys that did it in house for a living got pretty good at it. Do you have any estimate or data on how much time went in and to bedding? A complete rifle?

Now that you are not involved with cooper firearms what are some of the rifles you built for yourself

Great questions,
Throughout the years I’m not sure there wasn’t a bbl maker we DIDN’T try at one time or other. From 1989 to about midway 1994 we used the following in this order Shilen, Douglas, Wiseman (primarily 17cal), and then Wilson almost exclusively except for special runs and orders that used Lilja.
Bbl making is a true art of metal manufacturing and I have the greatest respect for those who made the ones we used. Of the people I dealt with Bill Wiseman, the advice of Bill Ruger, Shilen, George Wilson and the folks at Wilson, and of course Dan Lilja stand out in my mind. As far as today goes I am not sure but I do know that Wilson and Lilja continue the trend of fine bbls. Forgive me for not including any new guys…anyone who attempts to make an accurate bbl and succeeds has my utmost admiration.
Bedding wise we tried several techniques but the most consistent tried and true method we found was epoxy bedding behind and around the recoil lug with a “pillow” of bedding just forward of the breach while free floating the bbl.
My assembly men were the best in my book. Steve and Jason were the most consistent and efficient at bedding…it would take them anywhere from 20-45 min to bed and free float the bbl depending on the stock. Again, this was in a semi-custom production setting.
The most recent rifles I had built were done on Cooper bbl actions and finished by LeRoy Barry and his wife Connie. Unbelievable work! I sold them in 2014 to build a school in rural Uganda.

 

[Bamaslammer]

I have several and really like them but oddly I have been shooting mostly Savages for the last few years. My Coopers, mostly 2000-2008 all shoot very good. I don't understand why Cooper stopped making the m38 in the 221 based case.

OK here’s a great story and forgive me for being wordy.
Jason my nephew were up in northern MT trying to shoot varmints with a test M38 in 22 K-hornet. He was 21 at the time, working at Cooper, and said we need more power lol. He went back to the factory and enlisted the help of Randy and they proceeded to build a 223 built on the 38 (unbeknownst to me). Jason took the rifle out to the mountains and shot 5 rounds thru a dime at 50 yds, brought the dime back to me (I still have it today) and said we need to make this.
I don’t like liability and wasn’t comfortable about the receiver and lugs of the 38 to handle hand loaded high pressures of a 223. That was when I put into prototype the M21. I had seen a old varmint rifle made by Fajan and we took that as the base stock style, slimmed it down and put the prototype 21 into it. Then comes my famous understatement when after completed and shot (it was so sexy looking to me) I said “who the hell is going to buy a single shot 223?” It was just prior to SHOT SHOW, I took it with me but did not display it, Guns n Ammo came by and I showed it to them, minutes later Pete Petersen showed up with the entire Guns n Ammo writing staff, looked at it and said “this is the rifle that is going to make you”.
My dealers said just keep making them we will tell you when or if to stop. Thus the birth of the Varmint Extreme and later on the more affordable Varminter and Scheels Varminter.
Long story short, I don’t like liability I love strength, Bill Ruger told me once “build it strong and you’ll never regret it”.

 

[Bamaslammer]

I have several and really like them but oddly I have been shooting mostly Savages for the last few years. My Coopers, mostly 2000-2008 all shoot very good. I don't understand why Cooper stopped making the m38 in the 221 based case.

let me know if you got all that lol

 

[Bamaslammer]

Best forum I have found. Welcome.

thank you sir

 

[danny]

I am thinking several years ago I read Cooper was to open a shop in Eastern Ohio
Did it happen?

I have heard that many times over the years. I think that it was supposed to be because of Todd Kindler and near him. It did not happen, though.

Danny

 

[thejamesd]

Great questions,
Throughout the years I’m not sure there wasn’t a bbl maker we DIDN’T try at one time or other. From 1989 to about midway 1994 we used the following in this order Shilen, Douglas, Wiseman (primarily 17cal), and then Wilson almost exclusively except for special runs and orders that used Lilja.
Bbl making is a true art of metal manufacturing and I have the greatest respect for those who made the ones we used. Of the people I dealt with Bill Wiseman, the advice of Bill Ruger, Shilen, George Wilson and the folks at Wilson, and of course Dan Lilja stand out in my mind. As far as today goes I am not sure but I do know that Wilson and Lilja continue the trend of fine bbls. Forgive me for not including any new guys…anyone who attempts to make an accurate bbl and succeeds has my utmost admiration.
Bedding wise we tried several techniques but the most consistent tried and true method we found was epoxy bedding behind and around the recoil lug with a “pillow” of bedding just forward of the breach while free floating the bbl.
My assembly men were the best in my book. Steve and Jason were the most consistent and efficient at bedding…it would take them anywhere from 20-45 min to bed and free float the bbl depending on the stock. Again, this was in a semi-custom production setting.
The most recent rifles I had built were done on Cooper bbl actions and finished by LeRoy Barry and his wife Connie. Unbelievable work! I sold them in 2014 to build a school in rural Uganda.

Dan,
What time frame was Leroy doing the stock work at cooper? And what models was he working on?
Thanks,
James

 

[danny]

OK here’s a great story and forgive me for being wordy.
Jason my nephew were up in northern MT trying to shoot varmints with a test M38 in 22 K-hornet. He was 21 at the time, working at Cooper, and said we need more power lol. He went back to the factory and enlisted the help of Randy and they proceeded to build a 223 built on the 38 (unbeknownst to me). Jason took the rifle out to the mountains and shot 5 rounds thru a dime at 50 yds, brought the dime back to me (I still have it today) and said we need to make this.
I don’t like liability and wasn’t comfortable about the receiver and lugs of the 38 to handle hand loaded high pressures of a 223. That was when I put into prototype the M21. I had seen a old varmint rifle made by Fajan and we took that as the base stock style, slimmed it down and put the prototype 21 into it. Then comes my famous understatement when after completed and shot (it was so sexy looking to me) I said “who the hell is going to buy a single shot 223?” It was just prior to SHOT SHOW, I took it with me but did not display it, Guns n Ammo came by and I showed it to them, minutes later Pete Petersen showed up with the entire Guns n Ammo writing staff, looked at it and said “this is the rifle that is going to make you”.
My dealers said just keep making them we will tell you when or if to stop. Thus the birth of the Varmint Extreme and later on the more affordable Varminter and Scheels Varminter.
Long story short, I don’t like liability I love strength, Bill Ruger told me once “build it strong and you’ll never regret it”.

Dan,
WELLLLLLL,
Ok, I get it that you like strength, and what I am about to write is not something to slight the rifles, just an observation. For a while, when I first got some Model 21s, then was only handling them for a while, I went back to do some things to my Remington 700 .223 Varmint Synthetic and a Ruger 77 VT .223. Handling those after the model 21s made those two feel like crew served weapons. This is not to say that you made the 21 and 38 too small, but rather that the others are HUGE!

Danny

 

[Bamaslammer]

I am thinking several years ago I read Cooper was to open a shop in Eastern Ohio
Did it happen?

The proposed manufacturing facility was in Canton. I had purchased an old building that was a little over 100yds long fully open off Cherry St. We were getting ready to move all single shots into repeaters and demand framed a change. We had to grow beyond the small custom/production shop to accommodate the increased metal manufacturing capability.
Sadly it never happened, the winds of change in demand for the bolt action rifle with pretty wood were in the air. I failed to get the Montana home base manufacturing folks on board. They felt that I was going to move everything to OH. But that was not the plan. The plan was to introduce a base line most accurate production rifle ever made that would compete with the big boys. And keep the custom line in MT so I could increase their wages and benefits, isolating the 2 operations. After 20 yrs without vacation and the best years of my life I knew if Cooper were to survive it had to have a pro at the helm…someone who didn’t have the personal ties to the employees to make the business and investment decisions to take it further. In March 2008 I decided to sell.

 

[Bamaslammer]

Dan,
What time frame was Leroy doing the stock work at cooper? And what models was he working on?
Thanks,
James

 

[Bamaslammer]

I can’t help but laugh and love at the memory from your question.

 

[Bamaslammer]

oh I’m sorry I hit the post too quick lol
LeRoy Barry, one of the greatest people I know. To answer your question, LeRoy showed up at the shop around 1991 said he would sweep the floors to work. He proved he was THE STOCK MAN (and later crafter of fine rifles). Period. You ever have a craftsman take your concepts except like he is connected to your brain? LeRoy always knew what I was thinking and he took that and made it better. Around 2006 (ask LeRoy he knows better lol) I encouraged him and his wife Connie to go independent and start their own custom business. Understand that LeRoy was like a son and I always wanted what was best for him.
LeRoy rescued Cooper from a SHOT SHOW potential failure. He crafted designs from my mind and his. He designed and help build the old CVC shotguns, his wife is beyond one of the best hand checkers in the WORLD (except for maybe Karen Rasmussen…but that is up for debate lol)
I have a great story of the Jackson Squirrel Rifle that can tell at a later time.
LeRoy is the best, hands down, drop the mike, period….end of statement

 

[Bamaslammer]

When did you first decide to start making your own actions and is this when the business as we knew it started? You must have built quite a few rifles on everything else prior to your own line. Was there a favorite action that you based yours off of? Welcome by the way, I've always wanted an older Cooper rifle but could never afford one 15 years ago. It's still on my list of things to get though!

 

[Bamaslammer]

what? you want me to write a book ? lol just kidding
Honestly I started Cooper in order to make the most accurate Olympic target rifle. Lol that did not happen we introduced the model 36 With the three front locking log action. I had worked at Kimber two design the all American match rifle which was an ISO compliant rifle meant for competition. later I was introduced to the Mauser design which intrigued me. The first action introduced was the model 36 in a three front locking lug rim fire. there was no real baseline although I did like the Mauser action in rimfire.
And no I did not build any rifles prior to Kimber of Oregon that was my beginning in 1978

 

[Tommie]

I have a great story of the Jackson Squirrel Rifle that can tell at a later time.

As I heard it, you went on a squirrel hunt in eastern Arkansas and you were guided by a fellow named Jackson. He was a game warden or something of that sort. He described his idea of the perfect squirrel gun and you took notes. As the story goes, Mr Jackson got the first one of that model.
Even close to the real story?

 

[Bamaslammer]

I have what I believe is an early model 21 custom classic in 223. Has a little gold inlaid CC disk on the bolt handle. Amazing wood. Bought used serial # A11x. Was wondering when this was made and who made the barrel?

OMG you have one of the first 50 M21’s ever made!!! Congratulations what a find! The CC stands for custom classic. Are you sure of the serial number? did it have an X one it? Shilen made the bbl

 

[Bamaslammer]

As I heard it, you went on a squirrel hunt in eastern Arkansas and you were guided by a fellow named Jackson. He was a game warden or something of that sort. He described his idea of the perfect squirrel gun and you took notes. As the story goes, Mr Jackson got the first one of that model.
Even close to the real story?

Lol oh you’re talking bout Pete! Well pretty close. Pete and uncle Zell came to the factory out in MT. Zell was one of my BOD at the time. Now keep in mind this all happened in a day along with the Cooper crew and of course LeRoy Barry. I told Pete (Mr Jackson) that we should build the Ferrari of all squirrel hunting rifles. I had the concept in mind and LeRoy in his brilliance put everything to work. I’ll never forget telling Zell we needed a name for the Ferrari of all squirrel rifles, proved in accuracy, presented in uncompromised off hand feel, and the nicest wood I had in stock, I decided on calling it the Jackson Squirrel Rifle.
Yes Pete (Mr Jackson) has the first and I still have #2.
The most fun I had in my factory. Everyone including the checkers, machinists, and Laura could feel the energy. Everyone was suddenly on board. We thought we might sell a cpl hundred. The demand was so high we ended up selling over 3000 until 2009 when I sold the company.

 

[Bamaslammer]

My advice would be "Do not buy one"!

Why? Many years ago I took a friend on a prairie dog hunt with me. He bought a new Cooper 21 Phoenix in 223 for the hunt. He let me shoot it a few times during the hunt. I wasn't impressed.

Time went forward and I kept looking at the used ones on GB. Finally I found a similar rifle (Model 21 Phoenix with the Kevlar stock) in 204 Ruger. So I bought it. What I found was it shot the widest range of loads extremely well. Better than any other rifle I ever owned. I came to love the tiny 3 lug bolt in the Model 21 action.

You probably already can guess the rest of the story. I added another, then another, then another. Next thing you knew, I had 8 of them. And this was from a guy that wasn't that impressed with them. I thinned the herd by selling a few, but added more back.

And all of them shot better with less time spent on load development than any other rifle I have worked with. So that is why my advice is not to buy one, unless you are ready to jump into the deep end of the pool.

When I left Cooper it was like 81.4% of all Cooper owners were repeat buyers. That’s all I ever wanted, to make the best and affordable rifle for the accurate shooter and do it in style. The industry used to laugh at me for not increasing the price. I just liked making a great living, giving my employees a future, providing a living wage in lil ole Stevensville MT, and living a good life. Thank you Jesus

 

[Bamaslammer]

Most excellent to have you here with us, Dan. I've got three Cooper VR's, a Phoenix and a MTV in "rat calibers". All shoot my pet loads into 1/4" or less, all are keepers.

Wish I had some pertinent questions for you, but the rifles just plain shoot, so I'm happy with just that.
Welcome aboard!

Thank you sir