concentricity issues

[bigedp51]

Below Mr. Salazar "first" full length resizes the case in a FL bushing die with a larger bushing for the first step. "THEN" he uses the very neck die your are using CatShooter with a smaller bushing to reduce the runout, in a two step process. Please note he is "FULL LENGTH" resizing and the "rat turd in the violin case method" and "NOT" just neck sizing.

Two-Step Sizing and Case Neck Concentricity
by: Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/04/reloading-two-step-sizing-and.html

P.S. Since you owned two Enfield rifles and still talked down about them you are now at the bottom of my case greaser master list "again" and must work you way up from the bottom to the top "again". Your new title is catshitgreaser #20,0047 and you have a long, long way to get to the top of the approved listing.
Sad, too bad, you Enfield cad.

P.P.S. You are also off my official Enfield reading list and your Enfield library card is revoked.

Plus you will not be getting an Enfield shirt for Xmas.

 

[BoydAllen]

Ed,
From a quick skim, the article seems to say absolutely nothing about the difference of body dimensions of fired and FL cases. It would appear that you affection for violin cases and rat scat, has clouded your powers of observation in this case. Fl dies are made to different standards by different manufacturers. I am not sure about Redding's or the chamber that the brass was fired in, but as an example of those differences, I have been told (by a manufacturer) that RCBS makes their FL dies to SAAMI minimum for loaded ammo, and Lee makes theirs to SAAMI maximum for loaded ammunition. As far as him not using expanders, if the final bushing is properly sized so that almost no drag is felt as the expander ball passes through the neck, there will not be a negative effect on concentriciy, because the problem that cam happen is the result of the pull exceeding the yield strength of cases' shoulders. When you can just barely feel it at all, with unturned necks, the results are actually improved, not so much in terms of concentricity, but the uniformity and roundness of necks' IDs. This did not come from a book, but rather actual testing, a very long time ago.

 

[CatShooter]

Please note he is "FULL LENGTH" resizing and the "rat turd in the violin case method" and "NOT" just neck sizing.

I do NOT shoot "Rat turds in violin cases".

I like my cases to be a snug fit and have a bit of crush, and a dash of "O**" to keep things smooth ...

I really loved my #5 - I was given 1,200 rounds of Brit 303 Blue tip, and had a ball blowing stuff up.

 

[bigedp51]

Ed,
From a quick skim, the article seems to say absolutely nothing about the difference of body dimensions of fired and FL cases. It would appear that you affection for violin cases and rat scat, has clouded your powers of observation in this case. Fl dies are made to different standards by different manufacturers. I am not sure about Redding's or the chamber that the brass was fired in, but as an example of those differences, I have been told (by a manufacturer) that RCBS makes their FL dies to SAAMI minimum for loaded ammo, and Lee makes theirs to SAAMI maximum for loaded ammunition. As far as him not using expanders, if the final bushing is properly sized so that almost no drag is felt as the expander ball passes through the neck, there will not be a negative effect on concentriciy, because the problem that cam happen is the result of the pull exceeding the yield strength of cases' shoulders. When you can just barely feel it at all, with unturned necks, the results are actually improved, not so much in terms of concentricity, but the uniformity and roundness of necks' IDs. This did not come from a book, but rather actual testing, a very long time ago.

Dear Boyd Allen

Next time you skim read something don't move your lips when you read.

The brass he was using for the link I posted was Norma and it wasn't fired in an M1 Garand with a chamber .002 larger in diameter.

The brass the Op is using is once fired mixed IVI 5.56 military brass fired in a chamber .002 larger in diameter which can cause problems if the brass does not have equal case wall thicknesses.

And if you read a few more links the light bulb will come on.

Measuring the Case
by: Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/03/reloading-measuring-case.html

Checking Case Wall Concentricity :
by Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/07/reloading-audette-neco-case-checker.html

 

[BoydAllen]

Ed,
I was referring to your post #51 the first paragraph, and your later reference to Salazar's article in the same post. It was Salazar's article that I was referring to when I spoke of skimming. What were the dimensions of the fired and sized cases in German's article? I must have overlooked that information. You referenced the article as if his sized cases were sized to your preferred fit. I found nothing in the article that said that. I am pretty sure that he uses barrels that have chambers appropriate to his use as a highly skilled long range prone shooter, as contrasts with those of combat weapons. Perhaps I should have been more clear.
Boyd

 

[bigedp51]

If we fire a new case in a well cut chamber that is not cut to the case's exact dimensions (+/- 0.00001"), then the case is lying down (on the job ) and when the primer is struck and goes off - the force will push the case forward, but the rear of the case will still be lying on the bottom of the chamber, and now "pinned" in that position by the firing pin protruding into the dented primer.

Dear CatShooter

An Enfield bolt face allows the case to "LAY" unsupported in the bottom of the chamber as you stated above, please notice the bolt face is not recessed for the rear of the case and the extractor moves away from the case as the bolt closes.

A modern bolt supports the rear of the case and it "DOES NOT" just lay in the bottom of the chamber.

Now read below on how a full length resized case is actually supported and "WHY" the rat turd in the violin case" does work.

Reloading: Partial Neck Sizing
by: Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/reloading-partial-neck-sizing.html

"a full-length sized case in which the neck is also fully sized. There is clearance at the neck and in the body of the case, the closest fit anywhere is the bullet in the throat. If the neck to bullet concentricity is good (although it needn't be perfect), then the bullet will find good alignment in the throat and the case body and neck will have minimal influence. Let's not forget that the base of the case is supported by the bolt face or the extractor to a certain degree as well; this is yet another influence on alignment. As you can see, there are several points from base to bullet that can have an effect. My procedure is to minimize the influence of those that I can control, namely the case body and neck, and let the alignment be dictated by the fit of the bullet in the throat and to some extent by the bolt's support of the base. Barring a seriously out of square case head, I don't think the bolt can have a negative effect on alignment, only a slightly positive effect from minimizing "case droop" in the chamber. Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway.

In conclusion, I believe that allowing the bullet to find a relatively stress-free alignment in the throat by full length sizing (including the neck) and turning necks to enhance concentricity gives the bullet the best probability of a well-aligned start into the rifling".

 

[BoydAllen]

We FL size our 6PPCs. They shoot even better, at the ranges that we use them than German's match rifles. I was not challenging the idea of clearance, just the similie that you seem to have latched onto. I do not believe that his cases fit in the manner that you seem to advocate, nor do ours. The expression "like a rat turd in a violin case" seems to me to imply a very loose fit. I do not believe that is what he has, or recommends, and I know that in the world of the most accurate of all rifles, at distances up to 300 yards, that the FL sizing that has come to be pretty much standard, is a matter of slight clearance, not loose at all. I have written it before, and I will repeat it here, drawing from experience with issue military firearms, to "help" people better understand how they should proceed in their various quests for greater accuracy is not, to my mind a good idea at all, from experiences of those who load for and shoot highly tuned match versions of military firearms yes, issue weapons...not at all. Continually referring to what works for a SMLE as if it should be used as an example of how to proceed in the pursuit of accuracy that is several times greater than the best that can be produced with an issue Enfield makes no sense at all to me, and your attempt to quote Salazar as if his position is identical to yours with regard to the desired fit of FL sized cases in the chamgers that they are to be fired in, does not seem consistent reading of his body of work, or any particular article.

 

[bigedp51]

Ed,
I was referring to your post #51 the first paragraph, and your later reference to Salazar's article in the same post. It was Salazar' article that I was referring to when I spoke of skimming. What were the dimensions of the fired and sized cases in German's article? I must have overlooked that information. You referenced the article as if his sized cases were sized to your preferred fit. I found nothing in the article that said that. I am pretty sure that he uses barrels that have chambers appropriate to his use as a highly skilled long range prone shooter, as contrasts with those of combat weapons. Perhaps I should have been more clear.
Boyd

Boyd Allen

What I described is finding where the runout is coming from, either from a case that is distorted when fired from unequal case wall thicknesses, or when sizing the case or seating the bullet. The warped banana shape case does in fact exist and most of the time it is caused by firing weaker SAAMI commercial cases in larger diameter military chambers. And I first read about it in a "National Rifleman" magazine in the mid 1970s. The shooter was using national match 7.62 cases fired in a M14 rifle and shooting larger groups. The cause of this was uneven case wall thicknesses and warped cases and you bench rest shooters do not see it as much with your tighter chambers and higher grade brass like Lapua.

If the case is egg shaped after firing, the base will be tilted and the body curved (banana shaped) and if neck sized they will need to be indexed. If this same case is full length resized the base will be tilted even more and some of the body curve will be less pronounced. Bottom line these type warped cases need to be culled from the rest of the cases. I then check runout on my full length resized cases before and after seating the bullets.

So again I full length resize my case to give the case a little wiggle room so the case body has little effect with centering the bullet in the throat. Meaning the rat turd in the violin case that Mr. Salazar mentions in one of his articles because I know I do not have perfect cases.

And I also think the OP made his runout worse by his sizing method of a body die, neck die and expanding the necks, meaning his cases were never sized in a full length die and the entire case aligned in one operation or a two step operation on the necks.

 

[bigedp51]

We FL size our 6PPCs. They shoot even better, at the ranges that we use them than German's match rifles. I was not challenging the idea of clearance, just the similie that you seem to have latched onto. I do not believe that his cases fit in the manner that you seem to advocate, nor do ours. The expression "like a rat turd in a violin case" seems to me to imply a very loose fit. I do not believe that is what he has, or recommends, and I know that in the world of the most accurate of all rifles, at distances up to 300 yards, that the FL sizing that has come to be pretty much standard, is a matter of slight clearance, not loose at all. I have written it before, and I will repeat it here, drawing from experience with issue military firearms, to "help" people better understand how they should proceed in their various quests for greater accuracy is not, to my mind a good idea at all, from experiences of those who load for and shoot highly tuned match versions of military firearms yes, issue weapons...not at all. Continually referring to what works for a SMLE as if it should be used as an example of how to proceed in the pursuit of accuracy that is several times greater than the best that can be produced with an issue Enfield makes no sense at all to me, and your attempt to quote Salazar as if his position is identical to yours with regard to the desired fit of FL sized cases in the chamgers that they are to be fired in, does not seem consistent reading of his body of work, or any particular article.

Boyd Allen, your getting boring, I first read about the rat turd in the violin case at Mr. Salizars site and it was said by the Late Jim Hull of Sierra bullets testing lab and it is meant as humor about "full Length" resizing vs neck sizing. So again I "DID NOT" make the term up and you are just having a hard time grasping just what the term means, and it has nothing to do with the Enfield rifle. (Because I neck size my Enfield cases)

And the best thing about reloading is when I set at my reloading bench I get to pull the press handle the way I want to which ever way makes "ME" happy.

 

[Patch700]

ED.

If Boyd (or anyone else) bores you , perhaps you'd be better suited to have a little respect and leave sleeping dogs lay if you will?.. He is lending free insight to a fellow that has asked for VARIOUS opinions on the matter... What he didn't ask for was a waste of bandwidth such as copying and pasting unicorns (Granted they are fancy unicorns especially with the cat superimposed ... Perhaps that is your calling in life and I congratulate you as it takes some people a lifetime to find their calling if they ever even do)

 

[pacificman]

It's all good as I get a bit more knowledge out of all of this! It is what we are here for ...to attain better accuracy! as it is called "Accurate shooter.com" Thanks guys for even more insight to greater understanding accuracy! I'll bet krprice84 has read every page and I'll bet others appreciate what can be had with these discussions also! Just my take on things!

 

[bigedp51]

ED.

If Boyd (or anyone else) bores you , perhaps you'd be better suited to have a little respect and leave sleeping dogs lay if you will?.. He is lending free insight to a fellow that has asked for VARIOUS opinions on the matter... What he didn't ask for was a waste of bandwidth such as copying and pasting unicorns (Granted they are fancy unicorns especially with the cat superimposed ... Perhaps that is your calling in life and I congratulate you as it takes some people a lifetime to find their calling if they ever even do)

And if you noticed I was also offering free insight to the OP problem and someone else brought up the Enfield rifle and said not everyone is shooting a SMLE.

The problem is the 5.56 chamber is larger and can cause the case to distort as you can see below and cause runout problems.

And since your Canadian you should appreciate the fact that I got the unicorn at canadiangunnutz.com from a fellow Canadian and CatShooter thanked me for it.

So one more time, a case fired in a larger military chamber can distort more and cause runout problems, and I even asked for feedback from other forum members on this subject.

So if Mr. Boyd Allen would not have skim read the postings he would have noticed I was talking about the .223/5.56 as was the OP. And I was also not the one who brought up the Enfield rifle, and it was that low down commie pinko pervert (expletive deleted) CatShooter who did.

And in a nut shell I said to check the case after it was fired, after sizing and then bullet seating and see where the runout problem starts. I was having the same problem as the OP with .223/5.56 cases fired in AR15 chambers, I had mixed brass and excessive runout problems with the brass and was lending free insight into the problem and even linked expert advice on the subject.

And in closing I wasn't the one who brought up Enfield chambers or was I the one ranting about it and all I was doing was offering "insight" to the OP problem.

And this forum is not Benchrest Central and it IS called Accurate Shooter and covers a wide range of firearms.

 

[Patch700]

Lol , fair enough... I thought the OP had made mention that he did in fact achieve some respectable runout numbers PRIOR to the seating procedure. If that's the case as others have mentioned , it could very possibly be an annealing problem .

There seems to be an awful lot of possibly un-needed handling of the brass with regards to going back and forth between sizing dies... perhaps with his new FL bushing die he can get it dialed in.

 

[krprice84]

Looking at the OP''s first post, he says that he measures neck runout half way down the neck. I believe that this is a mistake, and misrepresents the magnitude of his cases' crookedness.

In my experience, neck runout shows up because case necks are at an angle to the axis of case bodies. Because of the geometry of this situation, neck runout will increase as the point of measurement is moved farther from the shoulder.

The .223 has a short neck, which by that fact will give smaller runout readings at the end of the neck for a given amount of angle to the case body. Measuring at the middle neck, effectively halves the value that would be obtained at the case mouth (in most cases). Bottom line, the sized cases are worse than stated.

The usual method is to measure at the case mouth, after first removing any burrs. As the measurement is moved away from the shoulder, the runout will increase just like the distance between two divergent lines increases the farther one moves from their point of intersection.

I failed to notice this detail about how the cases were measured before I made my first post.

If one moves the point of measurement more than twice the distance from the shoulder (as is must be if measuring first in the middle of the shoulder, and then on the bullet in front of the neck, the extension of the angle of the neck would cause runout to be more than doubled.

I have seen parallel runout, but it is not at all typical.

This I is a very good point, I will look at it a closer. My reason for measuring away from the mouth is simply that I have been told that the mouth is not the best place to measure. Logically, if it is deburred and smooth like the rest of the neck there should be no issue.

Having said that, I still find it odd that some cases which measure 1 thou at location x will end up with a bullet runout measured at location b of less than 2 thou (which is approximate to the tangent of the angle of runout and the change in the adjacent line distance in the triangle - that is, doubling the distance from the shoulder should double the measured runout, assuming that the angle developed is from a cocked neck and not the banana shape, which I am not sure is occurring as I have done my best to measure and eliminate, though the neco tool would provide for measuring this better than the Sinclair tool, it is still doable to a lesser degree maybe with the Sinclair tool.)

As for the military brass big ed, I totally understand and realize that this may not be as ideal as Lapua brass, it is, from my measurements, pretty darn good brass. When I have weight sorted it in random 50 case lots, after all prep is done, I have come up with an extreme spread in weight of 10mg (about 0.15 grains) which, I think, is pretty darn consistent. I also, as mentioned, measured as best as I can the overall curvature caused runout and found that it doesn't appear to be a factor.

And yes, I certainly missed mentioning that the flash holes have been prepped and the pockets uniformed. Basically every dimension that I have the ability to manipulate and make constant, I am doing so.

 

[krprice84]

Ed,
I was referring to your post #51 the first paragraph, and your later reference to Salazar's article in the same post. It was Salazar' article that I was referring to when I spoke of skimming. What were the dimensions of the fired and sized cases in German's article? I must have overlooked that information. You referenced the article as if his sized cases were sized to your preferred fit. I found nothing in the article that said that. I am pretty sure that he uses barrels that have chambers appropriate to his use as a highly skilled long range prone shooter, as contrasts with those of combat weapons. Perhaps I should have been more clear.
Boyd

Boyd Allen

What I described is finding where the runout is coming from, either from a case that is distorted when fired from unequal case wall thicknesses, or when sizing the case or seating the bullet. The warped banana shape case does in fact exist and most of the time it is caused by firing weaker SAAMI commercial cases in larger diameter military chambers. And I first read about it in a "National Rifleman" magazine in the mid 1970s. The shooter was using national match 7.62 cases fired in a M14 rifle and shooting larger groups. The cause of this was uneven case wall thicknesses and warped cases and you bench rest shooters do not see it as much with your tighter chambers and higher grade brass like Lapua.

If the case is egg shaped after firing, the base will be tilted and the body curved (banana shaped) and if neck sized they will need to be indexed. If this same case is full length resized the base will be tilted even more and some of the body curve will be less pronounced. Bottom line these type warped cases need to be culled from the rest of the cases. I then check runout on my full length resized cases before and after seating the bullets.

So again I full length resize my case to give the case a little wiggle room so the case body has little effect with centering the bullet in the throat. Meaning the rat turd in the violin case that Mr. Salazar mentions in one of his articles because I know I do not have perfect cases.

And I also think the OP made his runout worse by his sizing method of a body die, neck die and expanding the necks, meaning his cases were never sized in a full length die and the entire case aligned in one operation or a two step operation on the necks.

Big ed, I didn't mention the initial prep which involved full length sizing prior to the first firing in my rifle.

Also I might mention that the cases did not appear to take as big of a sizing effort on the full length sizing as some other military brass I had gotten my hands on that was clearly mangled in a machine gun chamber. Not sure, but it certainly appears, at first glance, that these cases are decent, for military fired brass.

I am trying to track down some Lapua or Winchester brass that is brand new. I would love to see what I can do with that, but it seems harder to find 223 brass than most other types.

I did find some Hornady brass that is new - should I try that?

 

[krprice84]

ED.

If Boyd (or anyone else) bores you , perhaps you'd be better suited to have a little respect and leave sleeping dogs lay if you will?.. He is lending free insight to a fellow that has asked for VARIOUS opinions on the matter... What he didn't ask for was a waste of bandwidth such as copying and pasting unicorns (Granted they are fancy unicorns especially with the cat superimposed ... Perhaps that is your calling in life and I congratulate you as it takes some people a lifetime to find their calling if they ever even do)

LOL

No disrespect to ed or catshooter - I appreciate the discussion, but it appears this has gotten to be more of a disagreement between knowledgeable people than answering the question

I do thank you both for your opinions and help - I think my plan, for now, is to do the following.

I'm going to measure the case runout of unsized cases as fired from the military chambers, the case runout of full length sized cases, that of cases fired in my chamber after full length sizing.

I will also see if the runout gets significantly worse near the mouth and if so will calculate how much I should expect at the bullet shank - if it lines up close to the mathematical expectation then I have my answer as far as why it is happening.

I still struggle to see why, however, I would get some random and less common examples of loaded rounds that measure out with 5 or 6 thou runout when they still measure less than 1 thou at the middle of the neck, unless of course the majority of cases are in fact banana shaped and these ones are crooked right from the neck shoulder junction - though if that was the case, why are they not being straightened during full length sizing (if just the neck is out)? I understand that banana shaped cases may not be fully fixed when full length sizing due to the spring back, but the neck, I would assume, should spring back less.

I am also going to try to find some liquid templaq as I think it would give me better results. What temperature should I anneal to? 650 f or 700 f?

 

['Freak]

It’s my understanding that new never fired before brass will retain in brass memory and is rather reluctant to fergit the circumstances of its first firing. If so and you want better than more AR blasting fodder then new most anything not previously fired in multiple different and possibly oversize military chambers would be an improvement. Can’t say about longevity but this recently obtained new boxed Hornady and Nosler brass is checking out pretty good. I didn’t want to end up mangling the good stuff while I’m still learning/developing the proper techniques for turning necks and etc., etc., putting to good use all my newfangled tinker toys.

 

[bigedp51]

krprice84

Questions:

1. When you full length resized your cases the first time did you use a standard FL die or a bushing die?

2. When you did the first FL length resizing was your shell holder making hard contact with the die meaning press cam over?

3. And when full length resizing did you pause at the top of the ram stroke for 4 to 5 seconds to help lesson the brass spring back?

4. Are your Canadian Military IVI cases known for being top quality brass or is it just average brass and all you could get your hands on at this time.

FYI CatShooter made the comment that our American military Lake City cases are the top of the line "BUT" Federal loads Lake City cases that failed military quality control standards and sometimes they leave a lot to be desired when it comes to uniformity.

 

[Joe R]

krprice84 said: Having said that, I still find it odd that some cases which measure 1 thou at location x will end up with a bullet runout measured at location b of less than 2 thou (which is approximate to the tangent of the angle of runout and the change in the adjacent line distance in the triangle - that is, doubling the distance from the shoulder should double the measured runout, assuming that the angle developed is from a cocked neck and not the banana shape, which I am not sure is occurring as I have done my best to measure and eliminate, though the neco tool would provide for measuring this better than the Sinclair tool, it is still doable to a lesser degree maybe with the Sinclair tool.)

krprice84,
I don't mean to get off topic, and I'm just a cub compared to some of the guys here, but having tried both the Sinclair and the NECO gauges I found them to be really tedious, slow and user error prone. I did find the CTK Precision gauge and it is in a different league. The other two seem positively primitive by comparison; of course it is a $400 gauge. If you have the money this is one of the tools that I wouldn't do without.

If you want to see one in action go to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UukFQTa6Gws

regards,

Joe

 

[ShootDots]

krprice84 said: Having said that, I still find it odd that some cases which measure 1 thou at location x will end up with a bullet runout measured at location b of less than 2 thou (which is approximate to the tangent of the angle of runout and the change in the adjacent line distance in the triangle - that is, doubling the distance from the shoulder should double the measured runout, assuming that the angle developed is from a cocked neck and not the banana shape, which I am not sure is occurring as I have done my best to measure and eliminate, though the neco tool would provide for measuring this better than the Sinclair tool, it is still doable to a lesser degree maybe with the Sinclair tool.)

krprice84,
I don't mean to get off topic, and I'm just a cub compared to some of the guys here, but having tried both the Sinclair and the NECO gauges I found them to be really tedious, slow and user error prone. I did find the CTK Precision gauge and it is in a different league. The other two seem positively primitive by comparison; of course it is a $400 gauge. If you have the money this is one of the tools that I wouldn't do without.

If you want to see one in action go to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UukFQTa6Gws

regards,

Joe

Hey Joe, that is quite a set up! Ingenious is the word! I might just have to get me one! Thanks for sharing!