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concentricity issues

So I'm sure this has been answered, but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

I'm loading for 223 Remington, using IVI brass from 2010, and it is all prepped very well. It is all trimmed to within half a thou to 1.75". The necks are turned on a k&m neck turner (tool steel cutter and pilot as that is what the guy had). I am using a Lee full length die with the decap rod removed, a Lee collet neck die, Redding body die which has been gently honed to be smoother inside and so it doesn't squeeze down the case body hardly at all with brass fired in my gun), and a Forster ultra micrometer seating die which I have honed out the stem on so that it makes better contact with the shape of bullets I load (primarily Berger VLD but also Sierra match king, game king, and Berger flat base varmint bullets - kind of trying to see what I can get to work best in this gun.).

My procedure for loading is as follows:

For brass that has been fired in my gun at least once, I do this:

1. Lube with imperial wax, lightly but enough that there is no stickiness in the die)
2. Run through the body die to set shoulder back about 2-3 thou
3. Run through neck sizing die
4. Run through k&m expand-iron
5. Trim on rcbs manual trimmer to length, careful to apply same pressure etc so that the lengths are consistent.
6. Neck turn to ensure whole neck is even and consistent with all other brass
7. Anneal necks with torch and a drill with a socketon it to hold and spin the cartridge
8. Neck size again, once then turning the brass about 30-45 degrees and sizing again, this is to keep the raised spots on the neck to a minimum and to ensure the most consistent results possible.
9. Check concentricity on Sinclair gauge
10. If within 1 thou total indicated run out on gauge case is ready for loading. If more than 1 thou (measured about half way down the neck, with case body supported far forward on the body as reasonable without getting too close to the shoulder.) Then the case is run through the body die again, sometimes turning the case about 90 degrees and repeating, then the expand iron and the neck sizer again (expand iron is used again here because I find if I don't do it then the neck tension isn't as exact. I have tried not using the expand iron and found no difference in the case neck concentricity compared to doing it this way, But I have found that on the Sinclair gauge the gross measurement appears half a thou smaller, indicating a slightly smaller neck diameter compared to using the expand iron first). If this doesn't result in less than 1 thou run out, then I will proceed to use the Lee full length die, set to the same shoulder set back so it doesn't affect the head space of the round, then the expand iron and the neck sizer. This has always resulted in the desired run out, but it also is not often that I need to go this far, usually the previous technique gets me within my spec.
11. Powder measured on a gem pro 250 (soon to be an older sartorious 0.1mg scale :)), and poured into each case through a funnel. If the powder charge is higher I use a drop tube.
12. Bullet seated with Forster seating die. I have tried many methods of seating and find that the slower I go, the more likely I am to get bullet run out. I don't lube the necks (found that the tension gets too low and bullets can move too easy, even with the approx 2.5 thou neck tension I have and 10.5 thou neck thickness) but I do use a nylon bore brush, with one quick in and out, to clean the inside of the necks prior to final sizing. The best way I found to seat is to use a pretty quick sharp handle pull, I have even tried choking up on the handle for less leverage and more speed and I found that works even more consistently. I can say that I generally get within about 3 thou total indicated run out on the gauge, measured on the shank of the bullet that is sticking out of the neck. My issue is two fold:

- First, why an I getting any more run out on the shank than measured on the case neck? In my mind they should be very similar unless the bullet is seating crooked. When I re measure the neck I generally find that it has gone out of wack a similar amount to the bullet, just slightly less.

- second, I would say 10-20 percent of the time I end up with the bullet measuring 4-6 thou run out, and rarely 7. Nothing appears or feels different about these rounds - if I didn't measure or examine them I would not guess they would be worse, but when measuring them or rolling them on a desk, the run out becomes clear.

Hope I provided enough detail here :p. Any suggestions? It's really a frustrating thing to spend this much time preparing brass etc, only to read 5 thou run out on a round..... i understand that there might be the rare exception where something goes a little haywire, but this is more often than a rare exception, on my mind. I don't think I'd be satisfied until I can see one or two rounds, maximum, that are within the spec I want. That spec is no more than 2 thou indicated runout.

Also, when people say total indicated runout, do they mean actual runout (which is half of what the Sinclair gauge would show) or just what the gauge shows? What is the acceptable amount of runout for optimum precision (and do you mean indicated or actual?)?.

Also, I do have a Redding full length bushing die coming so that I can try using a bushing and what is essentially a body die all in one step, but to me the problem doesn't appear to be sizing related as the necks check out fine before seating.

The necks do also appear pretty concentric before sizing, as ejected from the rifle, except for the small flat spot on the neck from ejection. Do you guys remove the ejector so that brass is treated more gently? I thought about this but an concerned that the hole left in the bolt face wouldn't be a helpful thing.

Thanks!
 
Sounds like your necks are too soft after annealing...this has caused problems for me in the past. Have you tried all the steps without annealing? Just a thought here. ;)
 
In the days before F Class we went thru the run out cycle. The common wisdom was that it was a parameter to be controlled to very low tolerances. Eventually there was some testing done and reported on that showed that it could not be shown to be a factor on the target for the level of accuracy that was common at the time. We now have an F class target that is much more demanding and things that were not significant with the conventional target may now be important. So my question is, has anyone done testing to show that this is a parameter that deserves the additional attention that you are giving it? I am not saying that you can ignore it but I am asking how do we know that it is worth the extra effort. Give me the choice between crooked ammo and straight ammo and I will take the straight ammo every time. If a reasonable amount of effort will give me straight ammo then I will put that level of effort into the loading process even though I may not know that it matters. But before I put a lot of effort into reducing this parameter to near zero I would like to know what it is worth. Has anyone done testing on this at the F Class level and have data to share?
 
To the OP,
From your account, it seems that the necks are made more crooked by bullets being seated in them. I would take a serious look at your annealing process. As the previous poster mentioned, you may be making your cases a bit too soft in their necks and shoulders. How are you timing your annealing, and determining how hot you have gotten your cases' necks and shoulders? As far as bending things goes, another factor would be the rate at which each bullet is seated. The faster you operate the press handle, the more peak force there will be. What is the condition of the inside of the necks before seating? Are you removing all of the powder fouling? If you are, this will increase friction, and that the forces that tend to bend. Perhaps some dry lube before seating might help.
 
Could one of you guys explain why an overly-soft neck might lead to concentricity issues?

I seek to understand.

Thanks,
Crow
 
krprice84

Two questions

1. Was your Canadian IVI cases once fired brass in your C7/M16 rifle or machine guns?

2. Or was the brass your using brand new and unfired before you got it?

If it was once fired brass from your Canadian C7 rifle then the chamber it was fired in was .002 larger in diameter and the brass may be distorted, warped and banana shaped.

I was given three five gallon buckets of .223/5.56 cases fired in 50 to 75 different AR15 police weapons and I had the same problem you are having.

Bottom line, it is not match grade brass and any variations in case wall thickness are magnified when they are fired in larger military type chambers. And this is why you are getting the large runout readings at the base of the case, meaning a skinny case fired in a fat chamber and stretching to meet the chamber walls.
 
Crow said:
Could one of you guys explain why an overly-soft neck might lead to concentricity issues?

I seek to understand.

Thanks,
Crow

Pin Ball humor "TILT" meaning the soft upper part of the case tilted when the bullet was seated.

"BUT" I do not think this is the OP problem because he is using standard grade Canadian military cases the equivalent to our Lake City cases. ;)
 
The neck die without an expander ball will size and true the outside of the neck putting any remaining thicker neck wall areas to the inside. Expand on the expander mandrel last pushing the thicker neck wall areas back to the outside whilst truing inside the neck where the bullet will get positioned relative to the case body.
 
after the case is fired. do you do the 12 steps you listed as prep for next reload?

If so, your doing way to much.
 
BoydAllen said:
To the OP,
From your account, it seems that the necks are made more crooked by bullets being seated in them. I would take a serious look at your annealing process. As the previous poster mentioned, you may be making your cases a bit too soft in their necks and shoulders. How are you timing your annealing, and determining how hot you have gotten your cases' necks and shoulders? As far as bending things goes, another factor would be the rate at which each bullet is seated. The faster you operate the press handle, the more peak force there will be. What is the condition of the inside of the necks before seating? Are you removing all of the powder fouling? If you are, this will increase friction, and that the forces that tend to bend. Perhaps some dry lube before seating might help.

I'll answer this and a few other questions and comments.

First, I am chamfering, forgot to mention that! My trimmer is a 3 way, but then I also do a clean up after neck turning.

Second, no not annealing every time.

Third, annealing is done with a blow torch, I use the temperature stick as I couldn't find the liquid. I scraped some off, used the torch until it melted, and I counted how long. I then annealed for about one second longer. Whenever I changed the flame size, I re time it. The stick is 650 degree f.

Fourth, the speed of the press actually makes the bullet seat straighter the faster I go. It's a consistent result, not random at all. Whenever I go slower the chances are it will run out more. Super fast and I can more often keep it under 2 thou.

Fifth, cleaning the neck is done with a nylon bore brush, though I would say it is pretty clean. My concern with not cleaning it is that the residue on the neck could either cause friction when neck turning or could even act as a shim when sizing the neck. Any thoughts here?

Six, the brass certainly is once fired military brass, though I can't be sure what kind of gun exactly fired it. I will say, however, that the brass itself seems quite concentric. Not sure where the suggestion that the base was showing run out came from - it isn't.

Also I just got a new press-ent today - the Forster coax press! Very excited to try this out. Was supposed to get a Redding full length bushing die, but the box has a 6mm br die in it for some crazy reason. Worst part is, the vendor said it's not their problem and I can either call Redding or pay the shipping back to them. Oh well, bogus crap though.
 
rocketron said:
after the case is fired. do you do the 12 steps you listed as prep for next reload?

If so, your doing way to much.

I don't do all the steps every time, neck turning is every second or third firing, trimming is the same. Sizing is generally ok with just a body die and neck die.

Also, to the guy that suggested the neck die pushed everything to the inside, that is not actually true. It is a collet die, so I figure it actually flattens it out to some degree but probably pushes most imperfections to the outside? Not really sure here, but it isn't a neck die with no stem. The full length die with no stem is simply used to size the neck down far enough that it becomes concentric so that I can expand it with the expander die and keep concentricity. This is only done, however, when the case showed runout.

Also, you will maybe be surprised here, but this is being shot out of a stock factory chamber. Haven't had the time or money to get a new barrel yet, and I'm still new enough to shooting regularly that I don't think I could push a high end barrel to the limit. I Ann trying to get the most prefect ammo for two reasons. First, I believe that all error compiles. So yes, my gun can shoot maybe 2/3-3/4 moa if the stars line up, more common is 1 moa, though I believe this is partly me too still. The loads that I really gave got tuned seen to go closer to 3/4 moa. I figure, forever, if I feed it the best ammo possible, it will hold it's best precision. But if I feed it crooked substandard ammo with varying neck thickness and runout, then that 3/4-1 changes into 1.5-2. Second, I want to get as good as possible at hand loading, learning all the details and trucks and nuances, so that when I'm actually able and ready to shoot out at a thousand years and further, and I have a gun that can do it, then I'll not be concerned about my ammo holding me back.
 
I would like to see some feedback from what I'm going to say below.

The OP is Canadian and bought once fired military IVI brass and the equivalent of our Lake City brass. The OP brass is not from the same lot and the only thing the cases have in common is they were made in the same year. On top of this these cases were fired in a chamber .002 larger in diameter than a standard SAAMI .223 chamber.

What I'm concerned about is the cases are not from the same lot and were fired in a multitude of the Canadian version of the M16 rifle and he may be trying to turn a sows ear into a silk purse. I tried exactly what he is trying to do with our Lake City cases and got better results working with brand new brass fired in my bolt action .223.

When these cases are fired in a larger diameter military chamber they can become distorted and sizing can increase the distortion. I do not think a $100.00 plus dollar die is going to fixed distorted warped brass from my experience. I found out before sizing and measuring the runout just above the base, mid case and just below the shoulder that some of the cases were egg shaped.

Now I would like to here some feedback about the possibility of warped banana shaped cases fired in fat chambers and mixed brass.

And CatShooter we talked about this same problem with my Lake City cases and I do not think your die will fixed distorted brass.

runout_zpsfe87d011.jpg
 
Looking at the OP''s first post, he says that he measures neck runout half way down the neck. I believe that this is a mistake, and misrepresents the magnitude of his cases' crookedness.

In my experience, neck runout shows up because case necks are at an angle to the axis of case bodies. Because of the geometry of this situation, neck runout will increase as the point of measurement is moved farther from the shoulder.

The .223 has a short neck, which by that fact will give smaller runout readings at the end of the neck for a given amount of angle to the case body. Measuring at the middle neck, effectively halves the value that would be obtained at the case mouth (in most cases). Bottom line, the sized cases are worse than stated.

The usual method is to measure at the case mouth, after first removing any burrs. As the measurement is moved away from the shoulder, the runout will increase just like the distance between two divergent lines increases the farther one moves from their point of intersection.

I failed to notice this detail about how the cases were measured before I made my first post.

If one moves the point of measurement more than twice the distance from the shoulder (as is must be if measuring first in the middle of the shoulder, and then on the bullet in front of the neck, the extension of the angle of the neck would cause runout to be more than doubled.

I have seen parallel runout, but it is not at all typical.
 
When these cases are fired in a larger diameter military chamber they can become distorted and sizing can increase the distortion. biged... Question for you...If the cases are fired in his chamber and he were to partial size for "best" fit in said chamber wouldn't there eventually be less run out and better concentricity? Or will these cases never be perfect? I'm asking because sounds like you have been there and done that! I'm an old fart and never too old to learn! :) I hope this will be looked at as positive feed back sir! ;)
 
I don’t know what happens to thicker wall section when the neck gets sized on a Lee collet die other than the thicker neck wall section isn’t going to simply disappear. Could be the thicker neck section averages leaving half the thickness to the outside and half still on the interior neck wall so the interior neck’s center still ends up being offset, but only half as much, relative to the center of the case body’s exterior form, maybe, I dunno. Anybody?
 
pacificman said:
When these cases are fired in a larger diameter military chamber they can become distorted and sizing can increase the distortion. biged... Question for you...If the cases are fired in his chamber and he were to partial size for "best" fit in said chamber wouldn't there eventually be less run out and better concentricity? Or will these cases never be perfect? I'm asking because sounds like you have been there and done that! I'm an old fart and never too old to learn! :) I hope this will be looked at as positive feed back sir! ;)

Your getting to the heart of the matter, when a case that does not have equal case wall thickness id fired the case will expand on the thin side more and slightly distort the case when fired. When this same case is full length resized it distorts the case even more. When this happens the base of the case will no longer be 90 degrees to the axis of the bore and the case becomes banana shaped.

The OP does not have Lapua brass fire formed to his chamber and I went through this very same problem with Lake City cases. I weight sorted the "mixed" Lake City cases, uniformed them, neck turned them and did everything a bench rest shooter would do, and brand new brass was more uniform and shot better than the lake city brass did all the work to in my .223 bolt action.

Bottom line these cases are OK for full length resizing and shooting in a iron sighted or red dot sighted on an AR15 rifle but they are not quality made Lapua brass and and no matter what you do you can't turn them into Lapua brass .

If the OP measures his cases on three points along the case body and they are not egg shaped he may get better results. But full length resizing will be a must so the cases have less influence with bullet alignment. But it boils down to a lot of work for very little gains and new brass fired in his smaller chamber will work better.

My best Lake City brass are used in my AR15 A2 HBAR with iron sights and the rest is used in an AR15 carbine, and my new unfired brass is for the bolt action .223 only.
 
bigedp51 said:
I would like to see some feedback from what I'm going to say below.

The OP is Canadian and bought once fired military IVI brass and the equivalent of our Lake City brass. The OP brass is not from the same lot and the only thing the cases have in common is they were made in the same year. On top of this these cases were fired in a chamber .002 larger in diameter than a standard SAAMI .223 chamber.

What I'm concerned about is the cases are not from the same lot and were fired in a multitude of the Canadian version of the M16 rifle and he may be trying to turn a sows ear into a silk purse. I tried exactly what he is trying to do with our Lake City cases and got better results working with brand new brass fired in my bolt action .223.

When these cases are fired in a larger diameter military chamber they can become distorted and sizing can increase the distortion. I do not think a $100.00 plus dollar die is going to fixed distorted warped brass from my experience. I found out before sizing and measuring the runout just above the base, mid case and just below the shoulder that some of the cases were egg shaped.

Now I would like to here some feedback about the possibility of warped banana shaped cases fired in fat chambers and mixed brass.

And CatShooter we talked about this same problem with my Lake City cases and I do not think your die will fixed distorted brass.

Good afternoon Ed... now that I have been released from posters jail, ;)

I think that there is some confusion and I will take a few minutes to 'splain it while I wait for the batteries in my driver to charge again ".. and I have cases to anneal before I sleep" (with apologizes to Robert Frost!).

When discussing cases. chambers, and firing in rifles OTHER than SMLE 303's, I think the word "distortion" and "Banana" is a bit overboard and excessive.

---

If we fire a new case in a well cut chamber that is not cut to the case's exact dimensions (+/- 0.00001"), then the case is lying down (on the job ;) ) and when the primer is struck and goes off - the force will push the case forward, but the rear of the case will still be lying on the bottom of the chamber, and now "pinned" in that position by the firing pin protruding into the dented primer.

If the rifle is an Off-The-Rack example of modern gun making, with a large chamber cut with a new reamer, this can easily be seen by the bulge out of one side of the case, just above the web. Hold a straight edge against the case and on one side of the case, you can see 4 to 5 thou of daylight just in front of the extractor groove. (Of course, it is possible to have a factory chamber that is cut with a min reamer also (I have one in a recently acquired 700 VFS, and it is a joy to load for).

But the body of the case (if well made) is now a tapered cylinder that is coaxial with a short parallel cylinder in front (the neck). The fact that the head is 2 to 4 thou displaced is of no concern (other to those that suffer severer ARCD).

Of course, if the chamber is cut with a custom reamer that was made to the cases' dimensions +0.002", then there might only be 1 to 1.5 thou of "daylight" in front of the rim.

But the body of the case, in either case, is not banana shaped or distorted.

If a well made military spec case if fired in a military chamber, the body will expand larger than it will in a SAAMI chamber, but it still will be a tapered cylinder attached to a little parallel cylinder in front... and 99.99999% of the time, it win not fit in a civilian rifle, unless it is fully resized.

I load a fair amount of LC and IMI cases - and, while some think because it is military ammunition, that the cases must be sloppy, nothing can be further than the truth.

Unka Sam spares nothing when making those cases - they are not the equal of Lapua or Norma, but they are superior to any US commercial brass - the heads are the strongest cases you can buy, and they will take the highest pressures you can through at them.

When you Full Size cases, either LC or any other - you do not distort it, you bring it to the final shape you want - just like the factory did when it was made. The factory annealed it, squished the case down to final size, and then (hopefully), annealed it again.

When I prepare military cases, I FL size them with minimum solid carbide dies, to minimum spec, anneal them, and polish them - they are better, and more uniform than any commercial cases (except for Lapua).... with no distortion or banana.

Sorting by year is pointless - dates on cases are NOT lot numbers, and they are meaningless - there are many case stamping machines running 24/7/365, and the date is there to meet military regs (they don't want you going into battle with 40 year old ammo).

To sort GI cases (and commercial cases too), first trim, then turn (if you turn), and then sort by weight.

---

The die I recommended to Joe is not a FL sizing, but it solves neck alignment problems like a FL die. - it is a neck sizing die, but very different than the very popular "Bushing S" die.

In any standard FL or Neck sizing die, the the case neck hits the die's shoulder/neck junction before the body comes in contact with the die body... so the neck starts to be sized, while completely un-guided. In the FL die, at the end of the stroke, the body comes in contact with the die body, and if the neck was a bit askew, the die "Forces" everything to line up... so FL dies tend to have less run-out.

With the neck die, either standard, or Bushing style (and the Forster "Bump" die), the body NEVER touches the case, except maybe brushing past it a tiny bit - so there is NO alignment force at the end of the stroke. In fact, with any of the neck sizing (or bump) dies, you could bore out the whole chamber section, and just have a 40° conical top of a straight 0.6" hollow "hole", and size all of your cases of that calibre.

... except for the die I recommended to Joe.

When I first saw this die in the Redding catalogue, I thought, "How dumb, who needs a micrometer on a neck sizing die??"

But in a round about way, I was forced to get one, 'cuz I took delivery on a 15 pound .220 Swift woodchuck rifle that was benchrest spec'ed, and at the moment, the only decent dies that had a match seater and a bushing "anything", was the Full Monte Competition set with the competition neck sizer.

So I bit the bullet, or the plastic, and bought the set, along with a box of #4 comp shell holders - I mean, what the hell, it was only ~$300 for dies and shell holders :( :( :(

Well the first time I used them, I was shocked - neck run-out on the cases was less than a thou, and when I looked at how the die worked, it all made sense.

They work like this - the case fits in a sliding shell, just like the competition seater. When you push a male cone section, into a female cone section, they lock into the axis, and cannot be laterally displaced - they are locked in place, no matter what.
Then the case-in-shell are raised into the die, and the bushing is forced down on to the neck, which is locked in place. Since the case chamber and bushing chamber are bored on one common axis, the neck MUST be sized in alignment with the body, so run-out is identical to a well made FL die, but without the problems of shoulder set-back and case stretch.
 
CatShooter said:
When discussing cases. chambers, and firing in rifles OTHER than SMLE 303's, I think the word "distortion" and "Banana" is a bit overboard and excessive.

CatShooter this is untrue and you can leave the Enfield rifle out of the conversation, the only difference between a commercial .223 case and a 5.56 NATO case is the brass is harder in the base. And these cases can become warped and banana shaped because the military chambers are .002 "LARGER" in diameter which amplifies any flaw in the case when fired. And if you have never collected milsurp rifles with big fat long chambers then you do not understand what I'm saying. So one more time, I had the very same problem the OP is having with mixed Lake City brass with the same date and fired in many different firearms.

And NECO did not make their gauge for Enfield rifle shooters. ::)

runout_zpsfe87d011.jpg


So again three readings should be taken on the body of the case to "SEE" if it is egg shaped or deformed, if not you should have straight and uniform brass.

Then the brass should be full length resized with minimum shoulder bump and used in the OP rifle and then the next time they are reloaded he can try neck sizing which I do not recommend. And also skip the annealing process unless he has fired these military cases more than a few times. Then the OP can full length resize the case with the expander button removed and then check runout, again when the neck is expanded and again when the bullet is seated and see where the runout is coming from.

The only dies that are missing below are my Forster bench rest seater die, my Lee collet die and my mandrel die, meaning I have sized these cases the same way as the OP and still had runout problems. And the best way to fix the problem is to full length resize the cases and reduce any influences the case might have when chambered verses neck sizing only.

dies003_zpsf9af9a52.jpg


And remember its mixed brass fired in an assortment of miltary firearms with "BIG" and "FAT" chambers and not a match grade chamber.

Below Mr. Salazar uses a full length die on once fired brass fired in a larger military chamber for his bolt action rifle. ;)

Prepping Military Brass for Highpower Matches
by: Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/05/basics-prepping-military-brass-for.html

P.S. And do us a big favor, stop writing "War and Peace" novels in your postings, when I first saw it I thought fguffey had written it. (Bazinga) :D

P.P.S. And FYI, as soon as "YOU" mentioned my beloved Enfield rifles in a derogatory tone I shot your Unicorn in the head with a dull .303 bullet. >:(

467343_zps85268136.jpg
 
bigedp51 said:
P.P.S. And FYI, as soon as "YOU" mentioned my beloved Enfield rifles in a derogatory tone I shot your Unicorn in the head with a dull .303 bullet. >:(

467343_zps85268136.jpg

I had a #4 and a #5, and loved them ;D
 

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