So I'm sure this has been answered, but for the life of me I can't figure it out.
I'm loading for 223 Remington, using IVI brass from 2010, and it is all prepped very well. It is all trimmed to within half a thou to 1.75". The necks are turned on a k&m neck turner (tool steel cutter and pilot as that is what the guy had). I am using a Lee full length die with the decap rod removed, a Lee collet neck die, Redding body die which has been gently honed to be smoother inside and so it doesn't squeeze down the case body hardly at all with brass fired in my gun), and a Forster ultra micrometer seating die which I have honed out the stem on so that it makes better contact with the shape of bullets I load (primarily Berger VLD but also Sierra match king, game king, and Berger flat base varmint bullets - kind of trying to see what I can get to work best in this gun.).
My procedure for loading is as follows:
For brass that has been fired in my gun at least once, I do this:
1. Lube with imperial wax, lightly but enough that there is no stickiness in the die)
2. Run through the body die to set shoulder back about 2-3 thou
3. Run through neck sizing die
4. Run through k&m expand-iron
5. Trim on rcbs manual trimmer to length, careful to apply same pressure etc so that the lengths are consistent.
6. Neck turn to ensure whole neck is even and consistent with all other brass
7. Anneal necks with torch and a drill with a socketon it to hold and spin the cartridge
8. Neck size again, once then turning the brass about 30-45 degrees and sizing again, this is to keep the raised spots on the neck to a minimum and to ensure the most consistent results possible.
9. Check concentricity on Sinclair gauge
10. If within 1 thou total indicated run out on gauge case is ready for loading. If more than 1 thou (measured about half way down the neck, with case body supported far forward on the body as reasonable without getting too close to the shoulder.) Then the case is run through the body die again, sometimes turning the case about 90 degrees and repeating, then the expand iron and the neck sizer again (expand iron is used again here because I find if I don't do it then the neck tension isn't as exact. I have tried not using the expand iron and found no difference in the case neck concentricity compared to doing it this way, But I have found that on the Sinclair gauge the gross measurement appears half a thou smaller, indicating a slightly smaller neck diameter compared to using the expand iron first). If this doesn't result in less than 1 thou run out, then I will proceed to use the Lee full length die, set to the same shoulder set back so it doesn't affect the head space of the round, then the expand iron and the neck sizer. This has always resulted in the desired run out, but it also is not often that I need to go this far, usually the previous technique gets me within my spec.
11. Powder measured on a gem pro 250 (soon to be an older sartorious 0.1mg scale
), and poured into each case through a funnel. If the powder charge is higher I use a drop tube.
12. Bullet seated with Forster seating die. I have tried many methods of seating and find that the slower I go, the more likely I am to get bullet run out. I don't lube the necks (found that the tension gets too low and bullets can move too easy, even with the approx 2.5 thou neck tension I have and 10.5 thou neck thickness) but I do use a nylon bore brush, with one quick in and out, to clean the inside of the necks prior to final sizing. The best way I found to seat is to use a pretty quick sharp handle pull, I have even tried choking up on the handle for less leverage and more speed and I found that works even more consistently. I can say that I generally get within about 3 thou total indicated run out on the gauge, measured on the shank of the bullet that is sticking out of the neck. My issue is two fold:
- First, why an I getting any more run out on the shank than measured on the case neck? In my mind they should be very similar unless the bullet is seating crooked. When I re measure the neck I generally find that it has gone out of wack a similar amount to the bullet, just slightly less.
- second, I would say 10-20 percent of the time I end up with the bullet measuring 4-6 thou run out, and rarely 7. Nothing appears or feels different about these rounds - if I didn't measure or examine them I would not guess they would be worse, but when measuring them or rolling them on a desk, the run out becomes clear.
Hope I provided enough detail here
. Any suggestions? It's really a frustrating thing to spend this much time preparing brass etc, only to read 5 thou run out on a round..... i understand that there might be the rare exception where something goes a little haywire, but this is more often than a rare exception, on my mind. I don't think I'd be satisfied until I can see one or two rounds, maximum, that are within the spec I want. That spec is no more than 2 thou indicated runout.
Also, when people say total indicated runout, do they mean actual runout (which is half of what the Sinclair gauge would show) or just what the gauge shows? What is the acceptable amount of runout for optimum precision (and do you mean indicated or actual?)?.
Also, I do have a Redding full length bushing die coming so that I can try using a bushing and what is essentially a body die all in one step, but to me the problem doesn't appear to be sizing related as the necks check out fine before seating.
The necks do also appear pretty concentric before sizing, as ejected from the rifle, except for the small flat spot on the neck from ejection. Do you guys remove the ejector so that brass is treated more gently? I thought about this but an concerned that the hole left in the bolt face wouldn't be a helpful thing.
Thanks!
I'm loading for 223 Remington, using IVI brass from 2010, and it is all prepped very well. It is all trimmed to within half a thou to 1.75". The necks are turned on a k&m neck turner (tool steel cutter and pilot as that is what the guy had). I am using a Lee full length die with the decap rod removed, a Lee collet neck die, Redding body die which has been gently honed to be smoother inside and so it doesn't squeeze down the case body hardly at all with brass fired in my gun), and a Forster ultra micrometer seating die which I have honed out the stem on so that it makes better contact with the shape of bullets I load (primarily Berger VLD but also Sierra match king, game king, and Berger flat base varmint bullets - kind of trying to see what I can get to work best in this gun.).
My procedure for loading is as follows:
For brass that has been fired in my gun at least once, I do this:
1. Lube with imperial wax, lightly but enough that there is no stickiness in the die)
2. Run through the body die to set shoulder back about 2-3 thou
3. Run through neck sizing die
4. Run through k&m expand-iron
5. Trim on rcbs manual trimmer to length, careful to apply same pressure etc so that the lengths are consistent.
6. Neck turn to ensure whole neck is even and consistent with all other brass
7. Anneal necks with torch and a drill with a socketon it to hold and spin the cartridge
8. Neck size again, once then turning the brass about 30-45 degrees and sizing again, this is to keep the raised spots on the neck to a minimum and to ensure the most consistent results possible.
9. Check concentricity on Sinclair gauge
10. If within 1 thou total indicated run out on gauge case is ready for loading. If more than 1 thou (measured about half way down the neck, with case body supported far forward on the body as reasonable without getting too close to the shoulder.) Then the case is run through the body die again, sometimes turning the case about 90 degrees and repeating, then the expand iron and the neck sizer again (expand iron is used again here because I find if I don't do it then the neck tension isn't as exact. I have tried not using the expand iron and found no difference in the case neck concentricity compared to doing it this way, But I have found that on the Sinclair gauge the gross measurement appears half a thou smaller, indicating a slightly smaller neck diameter compared to using the expand iron first). If this doesn't result in less than 1 thou run out, then I will proceed to use the Lee full length die, set to the same shoulder set back so it doesn't affect the head space of the round, then the expand iron and the neck sizer. This has always resulted in the desired run out, but it also is not often that I need to go this far, usually the previous technique gets me within my spec.
11. Powder measured on a gem pro 250 (soon to be an older sartorious 0.1mg scale

12. Bullet seated with Forster seating die. I have tried many methods of seating and find that the slower I go, the more likely I am to get bullet run out. I don't lube the necks (found that the tension gets too low and bullets can move too easy, even with the approx 2.5 thou neck tension I have and 10.5 thou neck thickness) but I do use a nylon bore brush, with one quick in and out, to clean the inside of the necks prior to final sizing. The best way I found to seat is to use a pretty quick sharp handle pull, I have even tried choking up on the handle for less leverage and more speed and I found that works even more consistently. I can say that I generally get within about 3 thou total indicated run out on the gauge, measured on the shank of the bullet that is sticking out of the neck. My issue is two fold:
- First, why an I getting any more run out on the shank than measured on the case neck? In my mind they should be very similar unless the bullet is seating crooked. When I re measure the neck I generally find that it has gone out of wack a similar amount to the bullet, just slightly less.
- second, I would say 10-20 percent of the time I end up with the bullet measuring 4-6 thou run out, and rarely 7. Nothing appears or feels different about these rounds - if I didn't measure or examine them I would not guess they would be worse, but when measuring them or rolling them on a desk, the run out becomes clear.
Hope I provided enough detail here

Also, when people say total indicated runout, do they mean actual runout (which is half of what the Sinclair gauge would show) or just what the gauge shows? What is the acceptable amount of runout for optimum precision (and do you mean indicated or actual?)?.
Also, I do have a Redding full length bushing die coming so that I can try using a bushing and what is essentially a body die all in one step, but to me the problem doesn't appear to be sizing related as the necks check out fine before seating.
The necks do also appear pretty concentric before sizing, as ejected from the rifle, except for the small flat spot on the neck from ejection. Do you guys remove the ejector so that brass is treated more gently? I thought about this but an concerned that the hole left in the bolt face wouldn't be a helpful thing.
Thanks!