Lee Collet Die Not Working So Well

[BoydAllen]

Just remember that you need to make all of your comparisons with brass that has been fired at least once, preferably a couple of times. Anything that you measured using unfired brass is not really valid.

 

[Phil3]

Understood and I do only have 1x fired brass. My future assessments will be with at least 2x fired brass using solid loads. Some of my loaded stuff was with starting loads.

Phil

 

[joejo]

why don't you check runout on a fired case then check it after you collet size. my assumption is that you will have zero runout, if your brass is concentric. then recheck after each step to see where your losing it. i bet its not the collet die.

 

[savageshooter86]

if you check runout on case neck on brass sized with Collet die it should be near zero by design of the die from my understanding and that is exactly what my results were when using the die with WW brass not neck turned.

Also your fired cases out of the chamber should be close to zero runout too IIRC, unless something is not 100% with barrel

There is an article out there somewhere that explains this about the runout from fired piece of brass. I will try to find it

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

Fired cases often are not straight even if the chamber is straight. If there is case wall thickness variation, the thin side expands more under the pressure of firing, making the thin side longer than the thick side when the case springs back after firing. The "banana effect" is more obvious on long cases and oversized chambers.

You can't fix bad brass. You can cull cases with excessive wall thickness variation, or you can buy good brass and not have to cull.

Hardly surprising that short cases, close-fitting chambers, and excellent brass are standard in the extreme accuracy games.

 

[boltgunluvr]

Phil....I shoot inexpensive Win brass and I like the fact that it sizes like butter. Very smooth and easy. I've never understood why folks are buying body dies and neck dies to perform one simple task that a good old FL die will do. For my bolt guns I use this cycle....I shoot FL, then NS, then NS, then NS (by this time the brass may be feeling a little tighter, but not often because my accuracy loads are not hot)...and then I repeat the sizing/shooting cycle if the primer pockets are still tight enough. NO body dies needed. Just good old FL and NS. Obviously this wont work for semi's.

I got on to this method after a well respected, and now deceased gunsmith spoke to me about it. He raved over the Lee collet dies. He was an old school "Yoda" of gunsmiths and most of all my bud. He always said... let the gun do some work for you....meaning....take full advantage of your once fired brass and learn to use that NS die. The only people benefiting from body dies are the people selling them. If ammo usage in different guns is an issue, then FL every time. The old guy always said....son, it's reloading, not rocket science!

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

I've never understood why folks are buying body dies and neck dies to perform one simple task that a good old FL die will do.

We buy the best brass and dies that match the chamber so we can shoot 5-shot groups like this one I shot with my 6PPC Masker cruiser at 100 yd.

 

[joejo]

Phil....I shoot inexpensive Win brass and I like the fact that it sizes like butter. Very smooth and easy. I've never understood why folks are buying body dies and neck dies to perform one simple task that a good old FL die will do. For my bolt guns I use this cycle....I shoot FL, then NS, then NS, then NS (by this time the brass may be feeling a little tighter, but not often because my accuracy loads are not hot)...and then I repeat the sizing/shooting cycle if the primer pockets are still tight enough. NO body dies needed. Just good old FL and NS. Obviously this wont work for semi's.

I got on to this method after a well respected, and now deceased gunsmith spoke to me about it. He raved over the Lee collet dies. He was an old school "Yoda" of gunsmiths and most of all my bud. He always said... let the gun do some work for you....meaning....take full advantage of your once fired brass and learn to use that NS die. The only people benefiting from body dies are the people selling them. If ammo usage in different guns is an issue, then FL every time. The old guy always said....son, it's reloading, not rocket science!

i agree with alot of what you typed here. i just substituted a fl die for a body die. i shoot, nk size several times with the collet die (like 4-5), until i get the hard to close bolt, then bump the shoulder with the body die, rinse and repeat.

 

[Erik Cortina]

And why not bump the shoulder/FL size as opposed to every 4 to 5 firings?

 

[aj300mag]

Erik, isn't Phil loading this .223 ammo for a gas gun?

 

[Erik Cortina]

Erik, isn't Phil loading this .223 ammo for a gas gun?

I believe he is. Which he should F/L size for sure if that's the case.

But even on a bolt gun I recommend to F/L size every time just enough to keep things working smooth.

 

[aj300mag]

;D

 

[Phil3]

Fired cases often are not straight even if the chamber is straight. If there is case wall thickness variation, the thin side expands more under the pressure of firing, making the thin side longer than the thick side when the case springs back after firing. The "banana effect" is more obvious on long cases and oversized chambers.

You can't fix bad brass. You can cull cases with excessive wall thickness variation, or you can buy good brass and not have to cull.

Hardly surprising that short cases, close-fitting chambers, and excellent brass are standard in the extreme accuracy games.

I am wondering about this. Some my 1x fired brass cases DO have case neck runout, causing me to wonder if my measuring technique is wrong or tools not good enough (using Sinclair concentricity gauge). I think the runout on the fired cases is there. Barrel and chamber. It is a Krieger. I doubt they are making sub-standard, non-round chambers.

Phil

 

[Phil3]

I've never understood why folks are buying body dies and neck dies to perform one simple task that a good old FL die will do.

For me, the reason is two-fold:

1) Overworking the neck. Example: My measured neck diameter after firing is about .253 for a 223 Remington. Using a Redding FL die, the neck is mashed all the way down to .240". That is a significant .013 reduction in diameter, but now the expander goes through and sizes the neck back up to about .248, an increase of .008". That is a lot of brass working. A Lee Collet die takes the .253 diameter down to .248", a total of .005" in brass working vs the .021" with the FL die. Which neck will last longer?

2) The FL die expander when pulled through tends to cock the neck. The weak side (thin side), is what gives.

For my bolt guns I use this cycle....I shoot FL, then NS, then NS, then NS (by this time the brass may be feeling a little tighter, but not often because my accuracy loads are not hot)...and then I repeat the sizing/shooting cycle if the primer pockets are still tight enough. NO body dies needed. Just good old FL and NS. Obviously this wont work for semi's.

As I stated earlier, my rifle is an AR-15 (semi) and I do have a bolt action coming. Given the shortcomings I am finding with the FL die, the neck/body die combination looks better. For the semi, I use both dies every time. For the bolt action, neck size, until I need to FL size, but can do that with the collet/body die as well. From my perspective, it looks like I can meet the needs of both rifles with the collet/body die combo and avoid the problems with the FL die (above).

Phil

 

[BoydAllen]

Well said.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Barrel and chamber. It is a Krieger. I doubt they are making sub-standard, non-round chambers.

Phil

I assume everything is broken until I check it.

 

[boltgunluvr]

Phil....sorry....I didn't see the fact that you have an AR. I have been able to shoot FL, then NS thru semi, but no more than that. I always FL for semi.

 

[Phil3]

Phil....sorry....I didn't see the fact that you have an AR. I have been able to shoot FL, then NS thru semi, but no more than that. I always FL for semi.

No worry. I will be shooting the AR and a bolt action in 223 and the Lee Collet/body will work for both of those applications. But, always have a FL for the semi in case I am I am a little nervous about case getting stuck in it.

Phil

 

[Archangel1usa]

Hi all,
I know this is an old thread, but I have been thinking about getting a Lee collet die for my 338 Lapua, so I am in the process of learning all I can about them. I have 2 thoughts to offer. One is fact, one is theory I can't test for the moment.
1) Fact...I have always used Lapua cases because...well...they are the best quality period. However, I recently purchased brass from Peterson, a relatively new American brass manufacturer at a much better price than Lapua. After comparing the 2, Peterson now sits at the top of the quality, consistancy, durability charts and is my new choice over Lapua.

2) Theory...When the Lee collet die first comes in contact with the brass, it is beginning to squeeze the thickest part of the neck wall. Annealing the neck first might soften it enough to allow the thick side of the brass to flow uniformly in all directions because it will be "mashed" first before the thin side of the neck will. Theoretically this would flow the thick brass into the thin brass slightly. It might also cause the case mouth lip to stretch slightly where the mashed thick side brass flows in that direction too. This would go away after camphering and deburring. The end result should theoretically lessen the thickness extremes due to the brass flowing easier like jello into a mold if annealed first before using the collet die.
I am not set up to test this right now, but if any one is, the results might be enlughtening.

 

[Iowa Fox]

Until I started using John Valentines instructions for the Lee collet die I was fed up with the one I got. It sat in the drawer for a few years until I tried his instructions in conjunction with a Redding full length die with the bushing removed. One thing I noticed is that if you squeeze the neck and give the case about an 1/8 of a turn and squeeze it again neck thickness variation improves.