Combining F-Open and F-TR Rifles in Matches

[smoking-brass]

If the number of shooters is very low in f-class open or f-tr rifles can they be combined for awards in a NRA registered match? Or do they have to remain separate?
no ruling in the rules to state it can be done or can't... any help Would be appreciated.

 

[FatBoy]

Any class with less than 5 competitors usually does not get an award or rolls up to the next higher classification for purpose of awards until you have enough shooters for awards.

This happens with Palma and service rifle shooters all the time at long range matches. Very common.

 

[smoking-brass]

Any class with less than 5 competitors usually does not get an award or rolls up to the next higher classification for purpose of awards until you have enough shooters for awards.

This happens with Palma and service rifle shooters all the time at long range matches. Very common.

Does that mean palma and service rifle shooters are competing against each other?

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

If the number of shooters is very low in f-class open or f-tr rifles can they be combined for awards in a NRA registered match? Or do they have to remain separate?
no ruling in the rules to state it can be done or can't... any help Would be appreciated.

Yes you can, they will all be shooting in F-Open class. Since there is no difference in classifications between TR and Open, scores can be submitted for classification purposes.

 

[XTR]

More than once I've been shooting F-TR at a match that had less than 5 F-TR shooters, and I wound up shooting in the same class with the F-Open shooters. If you are shooting TR it kind of bites but it's the way it works.

Case in point (this one burned), one upon a time in a Palma match I shot clean at 800/900 and dropped 6 at 1000 for a 444, lost to an F-Open shooter who shot a 446 , but that's the rules.

Yes, at long range HP Service rifle shooters have to shoot against Any and Palma shooters if there aren't enough to make a class, and both SR and Palma shooters have to shoot against Any rifles for the overall win.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

RBGC does not even have F-Open and F-TR separate in their match bulletin. I would prefer they be separated in the bulletin and scores and than possibly be combined only if there are fewer than a stated number of shooters.

But the practice of combining really makes more sense for classifications (EX and MA) with less than 5 shooters than for categories shooting under different rules. The NRA Rulebook states:

High Scoring Competitor in each class in each match. Classes may be combined because of low entry, but the manner in which such combinations are made must be clearly stated in the program.

But here classes (SS, EX, MA, HM) rather than categores (F-TR and F-Open) are in view. Further, the manner of combination must be clearly stated in the program.

Finally, I've always thought it was bogus that shooters could bugger the system by not turning in their scorecards. Combining of entrants (if done) should be done on the basis of paid entries, not on the number of scorecards turned in or number of shooters who complete the course of fire. Shooters who pay their entry and then withdraw should count toward the minimum number required in a class. (The NRA rule says "Classes may be combined because of low entry." It does not say, "Classes may be combined because of low numbers completing the course of fire.")

 

[FatBoy]

Does that mean palma and service rifle shooters are competing against each other?

They beat me to the punch. Yup,in almost all smaller matches (less than 50 shooters) palma and especially service rifle, get rolled up into Any rifle and compete directly against them for prizes. However, since the greatest of highpower prizes is the abilities to 1) talk smack and 2) have built in excuses, this is not really an issue

 

[RStewart]

Finally, I've always thought it was bogus that shooters could bugger the system by not turning in their scorecards. Combining of entrants (if done) should be done on the basis of paid entries, not on the number of scorecards turned in or number of shooters who complete the course of fire. Shooters who pay their entry and then withdraw should count toward the minimum number required in a class. (The NRA rule says "Classes may be combined because of low entry." It does not say, "Classes may be combined because of low numbers completing the course of fire.")

I agree.
We count the number of competitors we have at the beginning of the match in each group, not how many we end up in each. We also send in the NRA funds for the competitors that signed up, not how many want scores turned in.

 

[chkunz]

There was a time, long ago and far away when not turning in a score card would have been considered unsportsman like conduct. I have turned all mine in, the good the bad and the ugly and the scores are there for everyone to see. I do not remember anyone ever not turning one in when I ran matches. It never occurred to me at the time that anyone would consider doing that. What is the meaning of advancing in classification if you get to cherry pick your scores that you turn in?

 

[RStewart]

There was a time, long ago and far away when not turning in a score card would have been considered unsportsman like conduct. I have turned all mine in, the good the bad and the ugly and the scores are there for everyone to see. I do not remember anyone ever not turning one in when I ran matches. It never occurred to me at the time that anyone would consider doing that. What is the meaning of advancing in classification if you get to cherry pick your scores that you turn in?

To clarify- The ones not turned in at our matches are pretty rare and primarily when someone is unable to complete the match. I have also had some ugly ones over the years, too.

 

[smoking-brass]

Yes you can, they will all be shooting in F-Open class. Since there is no difference in classifications between TR and Open, scores can be submitted for classification purposes.

Deny, how does that work for awards in a registered match?

 

[Berger.Fan222]

There was a time, long ago and far away when not turning in a score card would have been considered unsportsman like conduct. I have turned all mine in, the good the bad and the ugly and the scores are there for everyone to see. I do not remember anyone ever not turning one in when I ran matches. It never occurred to me at the time that anyone would consider doing that. What is the meaning of advancing in classification if you get to cherry pick your scores that you turn in?

I agree to a point. In most cases I've seen, not turning in score cards seems due to either not completing the tournament due to a health or equipment problem OR shooting poorly and not wanting the scores published or sent in. Not turning in a score card for shooting poorly seems like unsportsmanlike conduct.

However, I can recall one case where a shooter was flatly denied a challenge for a shot marked a miss. Not that the matter was investigated and ruled a miss, the matter was not even investigated. No opportunity to challenge, just a zero on the score card and move on. I don't think I'd blame the shooter for not signing or turning in the card in this case.

But since there are no NRA rules governing when or how a shooter resigns or withdraws from a tournament, I would give the shooter the benefit of the doubt and suggest that they may resign or withdraw at any time and for any reason, including after firing is complete and before score cards are signed and turned in. Sure, they might be gaming it, but the NRA rules seem to allow it.

Then there is the question of how to handle shooters who may be taking the opportunity to do some load testing or other experimentation at an official match. A lot of shooters take NRA approved matches much more casually than NRA registered matches. I don't really mind them withdrawing after firing is completed by not turning in their cards. But I would mind if classes or categories got combined for not meeting a minimum number of entries as a result, especially if F-TR was combined with F-Open.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Deny, how does that work for awards in a registered match?

smoking-bras, it's as was explained above. If you have TR and Open shooters all together in one class, then it's all by score as usual and Open will usually win the match but maybe not all different classifications.

In other words, it's easier to make HM in Open than in TR. A great Open shooter will usually outscore a great TR shooter, especially in tricky conditions. When the conditions are nice, it's more of a horse race.

When I started in F-class, I was the lone TR shooter for a number of years, and I always contributed money to the winning Open shooters. When we had enough people to make a TR division, it got more fun for me. Nowadays we seem to have more TR shooters than Open shooters, so the glove is on the other foot. But Open always has an advantage with their higher BC bullets.

I should add that when I was match director I always kept TR and Open separate, even if that meant one division or another would not get awards. It just seemed fairer to me. As was explained above, the big prize is usually bragging rights. The scores are submitted to the NRA anyway.

Also, there is something in the rules that HM cannot be combined with other classes, so when there are only one of two HMs in a match, they can win the whole relay or match, but they can't win first in class and so on. I would always roll up starting from the bottom, until I have enough for a class and then start again with the next higher class and stop at Master.

When there are just so few shooters, there are no awards for that division.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I remember having the same heartburn when I shot FTR. I ran mid range matches and made sure to separate them regardless of entries. It is and was my prerogative as MD. It is not likely that anyone in Highpower is going to make even a dent in their expenses with awards.

I'm getting old enough that collecting trophys only results in storage problems. I'm wondering if there is a better way.

Anyone have a better idea?

 

[chkunz]

I remember having the same heartburn when I shot FTR. I ran mid range matches and made sure to separate them regardless of entries. It is and was my prerogative as MD. It is not likely that anyone in Highpower is going to make even a dent in their expenses with awards.

I'm getting old enough that collecting trophys only results in storage problems. I'm wondering if there is a better way.

Anyone have a better idea?

My opinion is that there should be no awards other than recognition in the awards bulletin. I would give a trophy for something significant like a state championship winner. That would allow the Match Director to reduce entry fees. I expect to receive criticism for expressing this opinion, especially from the HMs.

 

[smoking-brass]

My opinion is that there should be no awards other than recognition in the awards bulletin. I would give a trophy for something significant like a state championship winner. That would allow the Match Director to reduce entry fees. I expect to receive criticism for expressing this opinion, especially from the HMs.

I hear you ..

 

[Ned Ludd]

Many venues at which I've competed offer some small kind of medallion (or similar) for club match winners. It's nice to win a match, but to me, these awards have never meant a whole lot. However, at one monthly match in San Diego, the winner's prize was a T-shirt with the Match name and club logo. In order to get one, you had to win your division in a match. These T-shirts were very prized as they could not be purchased, and also served as great advertisement/recognition for the club.

 

[chkunz]

Many venues at which I've competed offer some small kind of medallion (or similar) for club match winners. It's nice to win a match, but to me, these awards have never meant a whole lot. However, at one monthly match in San Diego, the winner's prize was a T-shirt with the Match name and club logo. In order to get one, you had to win your division in a match. These T-shirts were very prized as they could not be purchased, and also served as great advertisement/recognition for the club.

I am very much in favor of this type of award as compared to the standard monitory award.

 

[chkunz]

Another point, the rule book provides guidance on awards by classification (marksman, sharpshooter, expert, master, high master) but does not require awards by category. The rule book does not preclude awards by category (service rifle, match rifle, any rifle, F-Open, F-TR, service, civilian, woman, jr, etc.) but does say the category awards are to be specified in the match program.

 

[navyrad8r]

I personally love getting rolled into match rifle/ palma class when I shoot service rifle in the palma match/ or 3x1000 (insert sarcasm). I am personally satisfied as long as I am not last in match rifle category. The M1 garand (.308) and 190s definitely take your mind of the sting of getting merged into another class. I tell myself...."I should have shot more 10s" then I wouldn't have this problem. I think every match director does the best they can with what they have. If you have a question about the bulletin just ask and then don't gripe about the answer.
cheers,
Doc
P.S. Go TR guys!!