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Cold welding of bullets in case necks and moly coated bullets

Jim when you turn your necks don't go into the shoulder so far, thats why the necks came off! I don't think the brass and copper like each other. It like when they put Aluminum Heads on steel blocks in cars. I use Moly in my necks and still have that problem after a short period of time.

Joe Salt
 
Joe Salt said:
I don't think the brass and copper like each other. It like when they put Aluminum Heads on steel blocks in cars.

So a worldwide ammunition industry, where safety is the paramount concern, has been selling copper-jacketed bullets loaded inside brass cases, for nearly 100 years - and billions of rounds - and this has not been noticed heretofore?

I wonder how all my old factory loads, and my reloads, sitting loaded for 15-25 years, have not ever shown this problem? Am I just that lucky? I'm headed down to the casino ...
 
Joe , I know you're just kidding , but to clear this up , these necks were not turned .


Brian , the empty brass would have been stored in a MTM plastic ammo box in my basement . my basement is heated in the winter and I use a dehumidifier in the summer . at that time , the loaded ammo would have been store in my gun safe . the safe does have a golden rod .


a year or two ago this topic came up . I posted this pic . one of the forum members worked in a lab , and was going to take my bullets and see if he could tell what was going on . I must have junked the bullets , I could not find them .

here you go , I found it . Jim

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3785592.0
 
jimbires,

There are so many variables, it's impossible to draw conclusions. But some generalizations can be made, and one which I feel safe in pointing out is that this must be a very rare occurrence, given the billions of rounds of ammo which never exhibited this, even those stored for a long time. It is just possible (I'm not saying likely) that that batch of brass was "off" in some way - either improperly annealed, or the composition of the alloy was abnormal, or the brass was tainted by some chemical, or the bullets. But I don't feel I am going out on a limb to suggest something highly unusual was involved.
 
Jim Read this no I'm not kidding!



Click here for an animation of the process

Cold pressure welding is a form of solid phase welding, which is unique because it is carried out at ambient temperatures. Other forms of solid phase welding are conducted at elevated temperatures, but - although these temperatures are high - the material is not molten, merely more ductile.

As early as 3,000 BC, the Egyptians prepared iron by hammering a metal sponge in order to weld the red-hot particles together. Blacksmiths have also hammer welded wrought iron for centuries. This type of welding was always carried out at high temperatures.

The first known example in Britain of hammer welding at ambient temperatures (therefore true cold pressure welding) dates back to the late Bronze Age, around 700 BC. The material used was gold, and gold boxes made by this process have been found during excavations.

DISCOVERY OF COLD PRESSURE WELDING



The electro/pneumatic EP500 rod welder is a heavy-duty machine that will weld nonferrous wire and strip from 5.00mm (.197") up to 12.50mm (.492").
The first scientific observation of cold pressure welding was made in 1724 by the Reverend J I Desaguliers. He demonstrated the phenomenon to the Royal Society and later published the details in the scientific journals of the time. Rev Desaguliers discovered that if he took two lead balls about 25mm each in diameter, pressed them together and twisted them, then the two pieces would join together. The joint strength was measured on a steelyard and although the results were erratic, good bonds were produced, with some as strong as the parent material.

After Rev Desaguliers' discovery in the 18th century, it appears that very little happened until the Second World War. This accelerated developments, especially in Germany, where light alloy cooler elements for aircraft were pressure welded, although it is understood that this welding was carried out at elevated temperatures.

A MAGICAL PROCESS

what-weldmat

Lengths of welded copper/aluminium rod
Seen for the first time, cold pressure welding can appear an almost magical process. People unfamiliar with it are often reluctant to accept a method of welding that does not involve heat or electricity and some form of flux to make the joins. After a demonstration, they inevitably ask, "How are the two pieces of metal joined?"

There have been several explanations as to the actual mechanism by which a cold pressure weld is obtained. For example, it has been suggested that it happens via recrystallisation or by an energy hypothesis, but most explanations have been either experimentally disproved or refuted on theoretical grounds.

The currently accepted hypothesis that accounts for a cold pressure weld taking place involves the atoms of metals being held together by the metallic 'bond', so called because it is peculiar to metallic substances. The bond can be described as a 'cloud' of free, negatively charged atoms into a unit as a result of attractive forces.

CREATING A WELD

Therefore, if two metallic surfaces are brought together with only a few angstroms separation, there being 300 million angstroms to one centimetre, interaction between the free electrons and ionised atoms can occur. This will eliminate the potential barrier, allowing the electron cloud to become common. This, in turn, results in a bond and therefore a weld.

A simpler way of explaining this rather awesome process is that if two surfaces are put together, both being anatomically clean and anatomically flat when considered on an atomic scale, a bond is effected equal to that of the parent material.

EARLY APPLICATIONS



The M10 hand-held, manually operated welder will join fine wire from 0.10mm (.0039") to 0.50mm (.0196")
In practice, however, bonding is virtually impossible under most conditions, because of surface irregularities, organic surface contamination and chemical films such as oxide films. In order to obtain maximum weld efficiency, any form of contamination must be reduced to a minimum, while the area of contact, the weld area, has to be made as large as possible.

In earlier applications of cold pressure butt welding, the upset and radial displacement of the interfaces was undertaken in a single step. This technique had several disadvantages: it was necessary to square off the ends to be joined; both surfaces had to be kept free of contamination; and the amount of material which projected from the gripping die was such that bending and lack of coaxiality could occur, thereby spoiling the correct flow of metal.

THE MULTI UPSET PRINCIPLE

Then came the system of butt welding developed by GEC, employing what is known as the 'multi upset principle'. When the material is inserted in the die, each time the machine is activated, the material is gripped by the die and fed forward.

In this way, the two opposing faces are stretched and enlarged over their entire surface area as they are pushed against each other. The oxide and other surface impurities are forced outward from the core of the material and a bond is effected. A minimum of four upsets is recommended to ensure all impurities are squeezed out of the interfaces.

The advantages of this type of welding are easily seen in practice. The ends of the wire or rod need no preparation prior to welding and the alignment of the two butt ends is automatic as the material is placed in the die. There is not heat setting to be arrived at, no gap setting to be made, as this is built into the die, and no spring pressure to be set. Any one of these things incorrectly set on a resistance butt welder would result in a weld failure.

SUITABLE METALS

what-weld

A cross section of a welded area, showing 0.315" (8mm) diameter copper rod joined to 0.374" (9.5mm) diameter aluminium rod
Cold pressure welding is restricted to nonferrous materials or, at best, soft iron that has no carbon content. Most nonferrous metals can be cold welded, and while copper and aluminium are the most common, various alloys such as Aldrey, Triple E, Constantan, 70/30 brass, zinc, silver and silver alloys, nickel, gold and many others have good cold weldability. Plated wires, including tinned copper, silver plated and nickel-plated, can all be welded to themselves or to plain copper.

The usual methods of joining dissimilar metals such as copper and aluminium, namely resistance welding, friction welding or flame brazing, will all result in a rapid breakdown of the joint. This reaction in a copper/aluminium joint begins to take place as soon as the two metals are placed together.

The problem is created by the oxides and the air space, which are left between the interfaces during these methods of welding, rather than by the dissimilarity between the metals themselves. However, with cold pressure welding, these oxides and air spaces are squeezed out in the weld process and, since no heat is applied, only the metallurgical changes than operate at ambient temperatures occur.

Cold pressure welding provides the most satisfactory way of joining copper to aluminium without the formation of brittle inter-metallic compounds. The quality is excellent because it produces a worked structure as opposed to the cast structure obtained in fusion welding. Also, there is no heat-affected zone with unsuitable properties.

To test weld strength, most people rely on a tensile tester. Alternatively, you can make a reverse bend test. However, the most stringent test is to pass the weld though a number of dies in a wire drawing machine.
 
What happened to jimbires cases is not "cold pressure welding" as described in that treatise. But otherwise, it's interesting for what it's worth.
 
Joe , I do believe the cold welding . I meant , I knew you were kidding about me cutting the neck into the shoulder to deep .

this cold welding , or bullet corrosion is an interesting topic . I often wonder about the guys using a sonic cleaner , or the S.S. pins to tumble . are they having this problem more than a guy that lets the case neck coated with carbon ? very interesting . Jim
 
What kind of cases were they, I know I had some do that, and it was because I tried to keep Donuts from forming. Cut to far into the necks.So thats what it looked like to me. I'd say they were really welded. Never seen that happen before, It wasn't Remington Brass was it?

joe Salt
 
jimbires I don't know other than what I've experienced and I use Moly inside my necks and still get it. Maybe its the combination of powder brass and Copper. And I do run tight necks!

Joe Salt
 
Joe Salt said:
I'd say they were really welded.

There weren't "welded" in the metallurgical sense, and as explained in the treatise. Maybe we can stop using the term "welded" - please. :o

There is corrosion clearly visible in the photos, and that's what's binding the dissimilar metals, not a "weld". When a nut is rusted to a bolt, do you say they are "welded"? They may be stuck so tightly you could twist the bolt like taffy and the nut would still be stuck, but they are not "welded" together, they are corroded together.

The real issue here is why did the corrosion appear. That is not normal, given how recently the loads were created, and how they were stored.
 
jackbrownii said:
Dans40X said:
Either coated or naked-

Your neck tension will determine "IF" you weld jackets to your brass or not.

Interesting. I had not seen that theory posted before in the cold weld threads I've read. Have others seen this correlation?
So it is determined by neck tension, and I presume that this is going to happen at the higher neck tension, any chance that it is because the neck tension actually slowly deformed the bullet over time? After all, any jacketed bullet is really a bag of soft lead surrounded by an only slightly more rigid layer of copper. If the bullet gets squeezed and starts conforming then there will be a reduction in OD of the bullet but only where it has been inserted and is in contact with the neck. Would this increase the effort to seat the bullet deeper over time?
 
Dans40X said:
No theory involved..... it's a fact.

Load Dummy Naked or Coated bullets into annealed brass-
Seat bullet of choice into a neck w/ .002" neck clearance/press fit.
Seat bullet of choice into a neck w/ .003" neck clearance/press fit.
Same as above w/ .004" neck clearance/press fit.

Leave undisturbed for 48 hours.

With indicated equipment,re-insert dummy rounds into seating die & seat bullets .010" deeper into case & measure force required to BREAK bullets loose.

Pull bullets w/ collet type puller-
When there is any dis-colorization/scratches/galling in bullet jacket cold welding has occurred.

Utter nonsense. It's simple mechanical interference between two relatively soft metals. The increase in force required to move the bullet is simple "stiction". Conditions do not exist to create a "cold pressure weld" in the metallurgical sense.
 
me thinks the QUALITY of the reloading process has a lot to do with it.
my brass does not scrape the moly/hbn off my bullets.
poor case prep will scrape bullets coated or not.
 
Corrosion seems to be the cause of a vast majority misusing the term "welded", as brians356 pointed out, especially in those pulled off neck pics. I have a bunch of bullets and brass that were stored separately from each other and both corroded severely. Anyone interested in pics, I can only text them. I came to the conclusion that it was the previous contents of the container in the case of the bullets - a type of sweet and salty cookie or candy. As to the brass, they were in a humid basement in a cardboard box on the floor, I suspect the moisture and chemicals in the cardboard reacted with the brass alloy causing corrosion and blackish spots.

I also was given some old factory hunting ammo (Sears) in .243. Out of the 20 rounds 18 are good as new, but 2 were corroded. 1 round had corrosion on both bullet and brass, the other appears to have corroded from the inside, outward, with the shoulder being completely eaten away and powder spilled out in the box. The lead base bullet was completely white with corrosion and the copper jacket was being degraded. In this case, it is possible that someone touched those 2 rounds and the acids on their skin contributed to, or were the cause, of the corrosion. It is a documented fact that some people have a chemical make up in their skin that is very acidic or very basic and causes substantial corrosion to metals.

Interesting topic, but I would really like to see a lab study of some bullet and brass samples to find the root causes and chemical identities of the culprits.
 
Joe Salt said:
Brian You busted on me because I said it was the two metals so which is it?

Joe Salt

I reviewed my posts re: you, Joe, and your question makes no sense to me. You will have to quote exactly what you are asking about. I never said there weren't two metals involved - that wouldn't seem plausible since obviously we're discussing copper and brass, both of which I mentioned specifically in at least one post.
 
jimbires said:
years ago I had some ammo I loaded at the most, 6 months before I shot it . this brass was bought new and fired one time , in this rifle . on the second fire a couple pieces of brass would eject and the neck would still be in the chamber . I was not annealing brass at this time , and just figured it was brittle brass . so one day I start to pull the bullets and the neck came off of two more pieces of brass . if you look closely you can see the corrosion on the bullets , especially the bullet on the right . Jim



I'd like to see what the bullet looks like under the neck.
Anyway you can slice the neck and peel it off the bullet without disturbing either the surface of the bullet or inside of the neck?
 
So a worldwide ammunition industry, where safety is the paramount concern, has been selling copper-jacketed bullets loaded inside brass cases, for nearly 100 years - and billions of rounds - and this has not been noticed heretofore?

Does this help, Have fun with your Stiction!

Joe Salt
 
djdc said:
jimbires said:
years ago I had some ammo I loaded at the most, 6 months before I shot it . this brass was bought new and fired one time , in this rifle . on the second fire a couple pieces of brass would eject and the neck would still be in the chamber . I was not annealing brass at this time , and just figured it was brittle brass . so one day I start to pull the bullets and the neck came off of two more pieces of brass . if you look closely you can see the corrosion on the bullets , especially the bullet on the right . Jim



I'd like to see what the bullet looks like under the neck.
Anyway you can slice the neck and peel it off the bullet without disturbing either the surface of the bullet or inside of the neck?


I looked for these bullets 2 years ago , when this topic came up . I could not find them . I must have junked them .
 

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