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Cold welding of bullets in case necks and moly coated bullets

Let me rephrase what I wrote in a way you cmight be able to understand.

If seating copper bullets into brass cases "welded" them together, the ammo industry would have noticed it, and stopped doing it, oh, say 50 years ago.

While I'm teaching:

stic·tion n. (stikSHən/)

Physics: The friction that tends to prevent stationary surfaces from being set in motion.
 
Joe Salt said:
What kind of cases were they, I know I had some do that, and it was because I tried to keep Donuts from forming. Cut to far into the necks.So thats what it looked like to me. I'd say they were really welded. Never seen that happen before, It wasn't Remington Brass was it?

joe Salt


Joe , yes it was remington brass . Jim
 
jimbires said:
Joe Salt said:
What kind of cases were they, I know I had some do that, and it was because I tried to keep Donuts from forming. Cut to far into the necks.So thats what it looked like to me. I'd say they were really welded. Never seen that happen before, It wasn't Remington Brass was it?

joe Salt

Joe , yes it was remington brass . Jim

Oh, well that explains it! 8)

<sigh>
 
I'm not here to argue about what exactly is going on, only to post about my unscientific results and solution that resulted.

During load development, I usually load my rounds long, then do seating adjustments at the range. I had some squeaky clean brass (SS media) that I seated Bergers as well as the same brass/bullet but used Imperial dry media to lube the bullets prior to seating leftover after a range trip. After a few months, I went to adjust a few remaining rounds of each to the "winner" of the seating depth challenge. The lubed media rounds seated deeper into the case just as they do when I loaded them originally however the non-lubed brass took noticeably more force initially, followed by an audible "pop" then proceeded to seat as normal.
Because of this, I always use the dry media when seating bullets. Maybe the ammo manufacturers tumble their brass before loading so there is some film or the like on them to prevent this issue?
 
J-rod said:
IMaybe the ammo manufacturers tumble their brass before loading so there is some film or the like on them to prevent this issue?

What about all the handloaders like us who have loaded and stored millions of rounds without this problem? What common trick do we all employ, without even being aware of it, that apparently makes this a very rare occurence?
 
Is there any noticiable accuracy difference between clean brass, no lube, loaded rounds after 6 months or so?
I have noticed increased seating force on rounds that have been sitting for a month or so, no corrosion on bullets (it's dry around here). For match ammo guys are using hydraulic seating system to make sure seating pressure (in other words neck tension or amount of resistance between case neck and bullet)is even so I can see that increased resistance between neck and bullet may affect consistency, just like neck tension.
Let's load 20 rounds of your favourite load for a gun that gets shot least(to avoid bore condition changes). Squeaky clean brass, no neck lube. Let them sit for few months, load another 20 on test day and shoot them side by side over the chrono, notice group size and velocity difference, ES/sd . Do the test at 200-300 meters in calm conditions if possible. If 20 of us do this, I'm sure we'll have decent amount of data to prove or disprove the theory, maybe?
 
Good day,

Six months may not be long enough with moly or similarly coated bullets, and you better make sure you've run 4-0 steel wool on a brush through the necks to provide finish consistency. You might start seeing some evidence with bare bullets after six months. A year will definitely show up with bare bullets. You can load long if the ammo is going to be stored for a while in either case, a 0.005" bump is usually enough to break the welding bond. Four years is the longest I've stored moly rounds without any lose of MV or accuracy. YMMV, I stored the ammo in Ziplock bags within an ammo can.

HTH,
DocBII
 
I understand that this thread a bit old, but thought folks might be interested in two circumstances I observed that go to the topic of "cold welding" bullets in case necks and "time".

The first is using 75-year-old - at the time I shot it - military surplus ammo, and the second is Remington's "attitude" about their ammo.

I have some M-95 Steyr carbines to which I have attached Pressure Trace hardware. I also have some 8x56R nazi ammo headstanped 1938. You may take the following as you wish, but I have never shot ANY ammunition EVER that had as consistent ignition, maximum chamber pressure or MV as that ammo. The standard deviation of the muzzle velocity was SIX f/s. And that's the real statistically rigorous standard deviation, not some bastardized easy-to-calculate "standard deviation".

The second is associated with some "modern" factory ammo.
I was at the range one day and a fellow had a couple of misfires with some factory Remington .30-06 ammo. Repeated attempts to fire it, even in other rifles, failed to produce ignition. The fellow saw that I was a reloader and thought I might have some insight. I told him he should contact Remington with the lot number of the ammo. He declined, but gave me the cartridges and told me I could if I wanted. I contacted Remington with the story and details. Here's my letter:

Gentlemen,

While at the range on April 16, 2005 I experienced a mis-fire with some of your cartridges. A repeated attempts to fire the cartridge produced the same results. The cartridge is .30-06; the packaging says:

"High Velocity"
"20 Centerfire Cartridges"
"Remington"
As well as the warning message in the upper
right.

The outside of the end-flaps have the following printing:
"Remington"
"30-06 Springfield"
"165 GRAIN CORE LOKT POINTED SOFT PT. R3006B"

On the inside of the left flap are the following letters and numbers:
"1-B"
"C438U"

On the inside of the right flap are the following numbers and letters;

" K 26c B7725"

The date stamp indicates that these cartridges were manufactured in June of 1988.

While these cartridges appear to be 15 years old, I don't recall any "shelf-life" warnings for Remington ammo. I just thought you might want to know. If you'd like to see a picture of the cartridge with the twice-indented primer, I'll be happy to provide that digital image.


Here's their response:
Question Reference #050421-000027
---------------------------------------------------------------
Product Level 1: Ammunition
Product Level 2: Centerfire
Date Created: 04/21/2005 01:49 PM
Last Updated: 04/22/2005 11:17 AM
Status: Waiting


Response (Dell) - 04/22/2005 11:17 AM
Dear Paul,

Thank you for taking the time to write into us. The shelf life of properly stored ammunition is approximately 10 years.

If ammunition is exposed to fire or if ammunition is older than shelf life, it should be taken to a law enforcement agency for proper disposal.

Customer (Paul ******) - 04/21/2005 01:49 PM

Question Reference #050421-000027
---------------------------------------------------------------
Product Level 1: Ammunition
Product Level 2: Centerfire
Date Created: 04/21/2005 01:49 PM
Last Updated: 04/22/2005 11:17 AM
Status: Waiting


Now I don't know about you, but I find that response STUNNING. Consider it in light of the 75-year-old nazi ammo. Furthermore, "taken to a law enforcement agency for proper disposal" is mind-boggling, and insulting.

Paul
 
Look at Norma's website under cases- they essentially claim a shelf of 10 years also due to brass age hardening and causing split necks. This phenomenon has been well known for years to shooters who use surplus military ammo. Have you verified the accuracy of your readings with some other source?
 
To which readings do you refer? Other rifles produce similar velocities. I shot up 500 rounds of that 1938 ammo. Different chronos - now MagnetoSpeed - corroborate the MVs. I have no alternative methods to measure chamber pressures, but if MVs are similar then chamber pressures have to be. I used to shoot a great deal of milsurp ammo - 8x57, 7.62x54, 7.5x55, 8x56R, 7.62 NATO and .30-06 - maybe a thousand rounds a year and even with some 8x57 "machine gun" ammo, supposedly notorious for splitting necks, I got maybe a handful. Upon closer examination, it was the same rifles with 'large' necks that produced the splits. Not only that, but a friend of mine made a device to 'convert' Berdan-primed cases to Boxer, and I reloaded a great deal of that 8x56R brass with Boxer primers. Never spit any of those necks. I'm not particularly interested in 'arguing/defending' my personal observations. I offer them (and the above ones specifically), only to those that appreciate the extraordinary amount of 'postulating' that one sees "on the internet". I understand questions about specifics and appreciate 'completeness', but I'm also a firm believer in the old saw that goes like this: Never explain yourself. Those that know you don't need it, and those that don't won't believe you anyway.

Speaking of split necks: I am NOT a competitive shooter neither am I a recreational "bench rest" shooter. I use the "bench" to verify design and sight in hunting rifles. I wish hunters would quit applying the "lessons" of the bench rest/competitive shooing community to hunting arms, and I wish the benchrest/competitive shooters would quit trying to convince hunters that they should "aspire" to the standards of bench rest/competitive shooting. The two are about as similar as driving to church on Sunday and the Indianapolis 500, including the equipment. It is my opinion that slavish devotion to the concepts of precision asserted by the bench rest/competitive shooting community have lead to a disturbing trend in hunting - long range (600 yd and more), big game 'sniping'. THAT "hunting" - if one insists on calling that hunting - is indeed more akin to the Indy 500.

But I digress. ;) I did so when I got to thinking about how insignificant "spit necks" are.

Paul
 
gitano said:
Speaking of split necks: I am NOT a competitive shooter neither am I a recreational "bench rest" shooter. I use the "bench" to verify design and sight in hunting rifles. I wish hunters would quit applying the "lessons" of the bench rest/competitive shooing community to hunting arms, and I wish the benchrest/competitive shooters would quit trying to convince hunters that they should "aspire" to the standards of bench rest/competitive shooting. The two are about as similar as driving to church on Sunday and the Indianapolis 500, including the equipment. It is my opinion that slavish devotion to the concepts of precision asserted by the bench rest/competitive shooting community have lead to a disturbing trend in hunting - long range (600 yd and more), big game 'sniping'. THAT "hunting" - if one insists on calling that hunting - is indeed more akin to the Indy 500.

But I digress. ;) I did so when I got to thinking about how insignificant "spit necks" are.

Paul
IMHO, one of the most ridiculous conclusions set forth here on the "Accurate Shooter" forums for some time. ......it is wrong minded to go out in the field with ammo developed for your rifle that produces the very best accuracy- not to mention the added trigger time in load development? Give me a break!
 
Long range hunting may use the technology of benchrest, but the fact that some use this technology in an manner that you and I do not approve of (risking a clean kill of a game animal for the glory of being able to brag about a long shot) is not the fault of benchrest. If people buy fast cars and drive them irresponsibly, they are to blame, not the people who design and produce them. If you want to blame anything, blame television. I know hunters who have become serious followers of long range accuracy. They have studied all of the ballistics, worked up seriously accurate loads, have state of the art rangefinders, and are generally as competent as they possibly could be, and they are not taking every long shot that presents itself. They are aware of what a crap shoot the wind makes long shots. On the other hand, I also know of people who are generally ignorant of most of this who have seen some long shooting on TV, no doubt carefully edited to omit any screwups, who take shots that they never should even think about. Generally, for most of us, developing the highest level of shooting skill and knowledge requires some expert mentoring. Unfortunately people buy things that they do not fully understand, and often attempt things that they are not properly prepared for. Television is a medium that does not find profit in fine details, but it does motivate people who may not even be aware that those details exist.
 
New here, but not so new to shooting, handloading, and electrochemical bonding.

Non-identical alloys, atmospheric moisture, and the presence of acidic/alkaline intervening coatings can produce a bond between the two dissimilar metals. It literally interchanges ions between the two alloys, and some pretty sturdy bonds can result.

To understand the process, look up how dry or wet cell batteries do their thing. Pretty much the same thing occurs when we assemble ammunition. In my own case, I've seen it with cases tumbled in walnut dampened with some dilute CLR as a cleaning additive, and also when doing sonic cleaning with Lemishine. The cases retain some acidic coating and when the bullets are seated the bonding begins immediately; slowly, and sometimes not so slowly.

I occasionally broke down a randomly selected cartridge from storage using my RCBS collet puller. On occasion, the bullets are so firmly bonded that they come out with actual cartridge brass bonded directly to the bullet. It's not a welding process so much as an electrochemically driven ionic transfer process.

Since my discovery of this, I no longer use any overtly acidic or alkaline products in my case cleaning processes, and am slowly researching a way to interpose a dielectric barrier between brass and copper on my ammunition making.

Another description of the process is bimetallic corrosion.

Researching the sonic cleaning process, I learned that additives like Lemishine, etc., really aren't needed. The ultrasonic agitation actually breaks down water into a vapor at the interface between the water and the brass. The resulting surface is as clean as it would have been after treatment with soldering flux. In some ways, the cleaning process is really much like steam cleaning. If one simply must use a cleaning agent, a simple drop or two of Dawn is literally all you need.

The problem can result in over-cleaning, where all oxidation is stripped off the brass; thus sensitizing it to the ionic transfer process.

My goal is to find a liquid additive to the rinse water that leaves a very thin dielectric coating on the brass, thereby insulating the brass from electrochemical ionic transfer.

NASA developed Teflon as an intervening coating or mechanical device to prevent a process known as vacuum welding. Though different in nature, it achieves bonds very similar to what we see between bullets and case necks.

The only issue I worry about when considering Teflon as the intermediate coating is whether or not some necessary chemical will have a negative effect on the propellant.

Greg

PS Jrod, I just caught up reading the other posts and saw your reference to Imperial dry lube. Thanks to you. I probably have my solution.
 
I didn't - and don't - "blame" the bench rest/competitive shooting community, BoydAllen. I think I was clear in laying that "blame", ("my dislike" is a term that would suit me more), at the feet of those that proselytize a philosophy and those that choose to drink that philosophical Cool-aid. There's always plenty of legitimate blame to go around. "The TV" is a good target for such.

It was not my intent to derail this thread on "Cold Welding" bullets to case necks and I don't care to add to that distraction. Mea culpa.

Paul
 
Back to cold welding. It is my understanding that some US military ammo was produced with an asphalt coating in its necks to enhance its ability to survive wet conditions. To the extent that this was done, perhaps that would explain why some very old surplus ammo has not exhibited problems that have been described as cold welding.

On the hardening and cracking of case necks, one factor that has not seen much discussion is exposure to ammonia fumes. Here is a bit of history that speaks to that issue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season_cracking

Some time back, from another source, I learned that there are two reasons that cases that will be loaded for military ammo are not polished after annealing. One is that the annealing colors are evidence that it was properly done, and the other that tests showed that polishing the cases reduced the storage life of the ammunition.

Reloaders may have inadvertently exposed their brass to ammonia by using polishing products which contain small amounts of it. While this short term exposure may not have dramatic results, I think that it should still be avoided. In the past I have see fellows add Brasso to their tumbling media. You might want to take note of its ingredients.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Brasso+ingredients&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

I always caution my new shooters that they should not store bore solvents and brass or ammo in the same cabinet or container. Perhaps some experienced ones should be cautioned as well.
 
You can identify brittle failure by looking at the fracture surface. Brittle failure has a crystalline appearance. Ductile failure: it stretches then tears. Ammonia is the most aggressive chemical to attach copper and brass. It attacks the grain boundaries and causes brittle failure. No stretching cracks form and follow the grain boundaries. General surface corrosion can occur between two different metal types if moisture is present. Interesting the necks failed where the donut would form. Probably failed near the shoulder because the bullet and neck were bonded together above this point. This discussion will probably go on for years. I don't believe corrosion of any kind can take place without moisture. Humid air is enough in many cases.
 
An interesting read. Back in the early 80's, an engineer explained the bonding of bullet/case. He told me to take ammo that had been load a month or so and group it against freshly loaded ammo. The comparison really showed me he knew of what he was talking. The fresh loaded far exceeded the accuracy of the older stuff.

I do not run my cases thru a cleaner because it cleans all of the carbon out of the case neck. The carbon does act like a lube when seating the bullets. Just my choice.

One other point. I will usually prep 100-200 cases and have them ready to load. What I have found is the resistance on loading brass that was prepared a few months back, was much higher. I have no way of actually measuring the inside of the case mouth, but the neck has sprung back in those cases. It is very obvious when pulling bullets on leftovers after testing. They are offering much more resistance in getting the bullets out.
 
In my experience, if you expand necks for turning a few days before actually turning them, and compare the fit on the turning mandrel to cases expanded right before they are turned, you will find the ones that were done beforehand to be noticeably tighter.
 
BoydAllen said:
In my experience, if you expand necks for turning a few days before actually turning them, and compare the fit on the turning mandrel to cases expanded right before they are turned, you will find the ones that were done beforehand to be noticeably tighter.
+1 My findings also.
In regards to "fresher" loads being more accurate - I shoot preloads at matches. I usually have some rounds leftover and use them in the next match as sighters and for the warm-up match. I cannot discern the slightest difference in accuracy from the leftover rounds to that of the newer batch. I would not trust leftover ammo shooting the same going into a new season however.
In regards to teflon and bullets. If you want to be driven crazy by a barrel that develops an affinity to throw shots, introduce teflon into the bore. Even a teflon additive in oil (Rem-Oil) will cause problems.
 
A chemist buddy of mine made me some quick drying liquid (looks and applies like white out). We seated a bunch of bullets at different neck tensions and with different lubes, no lube, annealed...etc. All seating pressures were measured and recorded with a hydro press. At the 6 month mark his were the only that showed 0 bonding when seated deaper.
 

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