Cleaning with Abrasives and using Fire Lapping kits and warranty

[joshb]

I read the whole thread! I get ice cream!
PS: Thanks to Frank for posting and the info provided by other members.

 

[LAH]

I also read it all. I found it interesting.

 

[Tommie]

Not sure where to post this so I'm going to post this on AS so going to put it on the main main message board.

This will probably start an argument but don't know what else to do other than to spell this out in black and white.

This has been kicked to death I don't know how many times but not just by me but by everyone when it comes to cleaning. I've posted pictures of what happens and the damage that can be done to barrels from using abrasives, using abrasives in conjunction with a brush and fire lapping barrels.

Everyone... when it comes to using an abrasive type cleaner you have to be very careful in how you use it. Improper use or over using an abrasive type cleaner either in a paste form or a liquid form it can and will cause problems. When and where and in what time frame we cannot put exact numbers on it. Too much is beyond our control being the barrel maker. We have ZERO control over what and how people clean barrels.

Same goes with someone using a fire lapping kit, Tubbs Final Finish or someone doing they're own finish lapping to a barrel. Again we have no control over what is being done.
You cannot expect a barrel maker to warranty and replace a barrel at n/c when something is being done to it that is totally beyond our control.

Latest example with pictures attached. Customer has less than 400 rounds on a 6mm barrel. Caliber is 6XC. He used Iosso bore paste along with Tubbs Final Finish to fire lap the barrel. How many times etc... we don't know exactly.

The first approx. 2" of rifling in front of the chamber... the lands are completely gone. Basically polished smooth. From the breech face of the chamber until you get about 6" up from the breech do you start to see lands. At this junction point the bore is about .2385". That's a full .0015" of material that has been taken out of the bore.

Tubbs years ago asked me to endorse his Final Finish kits. I said... only if he was going to cover the warranty on the barrels. The conversation ended right then and there on the phone.

The rest of the bore when you look at the lands there is no crispness to it. The edges are smoothed/rounded over. All points to cleaning damage. Sorry for the grainy pics.

The customer wasn't happy when we said we will not warranty it. He said he's done it to four other barrels with no issues. Again guys... we have no control over how much is done and how often and how aggressive. Cleaning is simply beyond our control in what a person does to the barrel. Maybe the company who makes the cleaner product should cover the warranty to the barrel/customers rifle. I'd like to see that happen?

I tried to come to a happy medium with customer and said that we would help with something but not eating the whole thing. it was a no go.

It's on our website under cleaning etc.... as well.

No fire lapping kits should be used in our barrels. This can damage the barrel and we will not warranty a barrel in any way.
Your barrel should never be lapped by anyone else other than us. Any individual or gunsmith lapping our barrels also voids the warranty.

If you want to play with or use a Fire Lapping kit.... I only say in a factory type barrel with a really rough bore and if your going to use it in ours... use it towards the end of the life of the barrel. Then I feel you most likely have nothing to lose if something should happen but there is no reason to use it on our barrel when it's new etc... if you think you have a problem with our barrel.... I'd prefer you call us and ask us for help before something gets done to it that cannot be undone.

First pic is at the case mouth of the 6mm barrel. Next pic is 6" from the breech face/approx. 2" to 3" in from the case mouth and there is no rifling. Next pic is 8" up from the breech end. Last pic is a few inches in from the muzzle end. It's just getting polished and the crispness to the lands is gone.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

I totally feel your pain, Frank. Automotive dealership service department guy here. Between Youtube and car forums I’m up to my eyeballs in the stupid crap people do to their equipment and then want the repair covered under warranty. “I did some research…” makes my skin crawl. Sometimes it takes 100% of my dwindling self-control to keep from snapping on some people when they insist I don’t know the facts. Or better yet, when they lie about doing idiotic stuff to their vehicle. Sound familiar?

Hang in there buddy.

 

[FrankG]

I totally feel your pain, Frank. Automotive dealership service department guy here. Between Youtube and car forums I’m up to my eyeballs in the stupid crap people do to their equipment and then want the repair covered under warranty. “I did some research…” makes my skin crawl. Sometimes it takes 100% of my dwindling self-control to keep from snapping on some people when they insist I don’t know the facts. Or better yet, when they lie about doing idiotic stuff to their vehicle. Sound familiar?

Hang in there buddy.

You being a car guy in a repair shop environment.. gotta good one for ya!

An old friend of mine was originally a mechanic. Stopped down at shop where he worked as he hadn't been home yet. Yep he was still working. It was winter time...temps where down around -10F etc..this was like Feb. 1987 for a few days. He was working on a car and just couldn't get it to crank over etc... sat in a heated shop all day. Turned out the owner poured warm water down the carb. When the car got towed in and he popped the hood air cleaner and all in place. Nothing funky looking about anything.

Anyways long story short.... he called the owner up the next day and asked how did water get down the carb. The water froze solid in the cast iron intake manifold and down to the heads. The owner said... the car wouldn't start. So he figured the carb was frozen/cold. So he decided to pour warm water down the carb to warm it up thinking it would help the car start.

Here's your sign!

Sorry for the detour from gun cleaning guys!

 

[joshb]

I knew a brainiac math whiz school teacher guy that killed his diesel BMW by filling it up with gas.

 

[FrankG]

I knew a brainiac math whiz school teacher guy that killed his diesel BMW by filling it up with gas.

A kid in high school in Auto Class was working on a teachers car... filled the brake master cylinder up with regular engine oil and pumped the brakes. All the seals shot!

Back to your regular scheduled programming....

 

[charlie b]

Yep, lots of stories.

Old days. Lady had a car that started fine but didn't run well. Brought it in. Nothing seemed wrong. Mechanic said for her to go with him. He pulled the choke out, started the car and pushed it back in. She asked why he pushed it back in and he told her. She asked, 'Now where will I hang my purse?'

Gas in diesel. Early years with Audi diesel sedans. they recommended adding a gal (IIRC) of gas per tank of diesel in winter. They were always getting calls about cars not starting in winter cause the owner didn't see that in the owners manual, or blowing fuel injectors when a tank wasn't drained before spring.

 

[jelenko]

FYI. I described how I was using Flitz on a tight patch wrapped around a parker hale jag to Flitz tech support.
They said I would remove a very thin layer of metal doing that.

Kudos to @dellet for identifying that using a Flitz with a patch that way would tend to remove more material that using a nylon brush.​

​

For now, I'm using a nylon brush. Hopefully it removes less metal. It does take fewer strokes that using the patch.

 

[ELR LVR]

Yep, lots of stories.

Old days. Lady had a car that started fine but didn't run well. Brought it in. Nothing seemed wrong. Mechanic said for her to go with him. He pulled the choke out, started the car and pushed it back in. She asked why he pushed it back in and he told her. She asked, 'Now where will I hang my purse?'

Gas in diesel. Early years with Audi diesel sedans. they recommended adding a gal (IIRC) of gas per tank of diesel in winter. They were always getting calls about cars not starting in winter cause the owner didn't see that in the owners manual, or blowing fuel injectors when a tank wasn't drained before spring.

Being a diesel driver, but also a mechanic, I have read of people putting a tiny bit of diesel in the tank to help them start during winter
But also read this lowers the Cetane rating
Similary
Diesel in a Gas rig also lowers the octane
So wonder still, if even though it may start easier, is lowering the cetane actually doing more damage
Did Audi ever address this?

 

[charlie b]

Have no idea. That was back in the early 80's so I figured they worked something out since I haven't heard of anything like that these days.

 

[358WCF]

Being a diesel driver, but also a mechanic, I have read of people putting a tiny bit of diesel in the tank to help them start during winter
But also read this lowers the Cetane rating
Similary
Diesel in a Gas rig also lowers the octane
So wonder still, if even though it may start easier, is lowering the cetane actually doing more damage
Did Audi ever address this?

I worked for VW in northern PA back in those days. Same (converted gas) engines & same Bosch injection systems as Audi. The problem was that diesel would gel at the low temps reached in the northern parts of the country & not flow thru the lines. The approx. 1:10 ratio of gasoline recommended was only to thin the diesel fuel. My dad had an '84 Rabbit diesel that my buddy ended up buying & ran until he died a few years back. Never a problem when following VWs directions.

I'm unsure how it could possibly "blow the injectors"... too much gas in diesel will detonate & "blow" head gaskets or in extreme cases, holes in pistons. I'm searching deep in the memory banks but also vaguely remember bent valves & a broken camshaft in a Rabbit that was attributed to incorrect fuel (gasoline) being used. Also unsure why one would have to "drain the tank before spring" as driving empties it, requiring a refill every couple hundred miles. Just stop adding gas when the weather gets warmer. There were also diesel conditioners available which accomplished the same thinning. STP & BG brands comes to mind, but there were others. It cost more than a gallon of diesel but was less of a PITA than going to 2 pumps when refueling. This is similar to having your heating oil company deliver a 25% kerosene mix in the heating oil during the colder months if your fuel tank was outside. I dont have to pay attention to that stuff anymore, but hope the oil companies have addressed the winter blend thing in more recent years.

 

[358WCF]

While I'm here, I would probably not lap a quality custom type barrel, but I have firelapped a few particularly nasty factory barrels in the past with excellent results. The biggest improvement was a brand new Remington 35 Whelen Classic barrel rechambered to 358 Norma that coppered terribly. What looked like RR tracks on the lands was visible from the muzzle end. I bought a NECO kit & after carefully following the directions for 2 rounds of firelapping saved the barrel from the scrap pile. The throat lengthened about .020". Not a big deal as it was fairly short to start with. It shoots well for what it is & cleans easily.

No before pics as it was done in 1992, but here's a recent picture. Cleaned regularly with Shooter's Choice & Kroil (Free-all in recent years) also periodically with Rem-Clean (Gold Medallion).

 

[FrankG]

While I'm here, I would probably not lap a quality custom type barrel, but I have firelapped a few particularly nasty factory barrels in the past with excellent results. The biggest improvement was a brand new Remington 35 Whelen Classic barrel rechambered to 358 Norma that coppered terribly. What looked like RR tracks on the lands was visible from the muzzle end. I bought a NECO kit & after carefully following the directions for 2 rounds of firelapping saved the barrel from the scrap pile. The throat lengthened about .020". Not a big deal as it was fairly short to start with. It shoots well for what it is & cleans easily.

No before pics as it was done in 1992, but here's a recent picture. Cleaned regularly with Shooter's Choice & Kroil (Free-all in recent years) also periodically with Rem-Clean (Gold Medallion).

View attachment 1708674

That was one of my comments.... if it's a factory type barrel that is rougher than a plowed field and it's fouling horribly... then you probably got nothing to lose. Especially if money is tight and you can't afford gunsmithing costs and a custom barrel etc...

Right here @358WCF says.... fired two rounds and the throat lengthened .020". So other people do see what we see.

Later, Frank

 

[358WCF]

That was one of my comments.... if it's a factory type barrel that is rougher than a plowed field and it's fouling horribly... then you probably got nothing to lose. Especially if money is tight and you can't afford gunsmithing costs and a custom barrel etc...

Right here @358WCF says.... fired two rounds and the throat lengthened .020". So other people do see what we see.

Later, Frank

Oops... maybe I should have used different wording there. Not 2 rounds as in 2 shots, but 2 series coarse to fine of whatever it took, maybe 10 or 15 shots, to complete. Twice.

 

[dellet]

I worked for VW in northern PA back in those days. Same (converted gas) engines & same Bosch injection systems as Audi. The problem was that diesel would gel at the low temps reached in the northern parts of the country & not flow thru the lines. The approx. 1:10 ratio of gasoline recommended was only to thin the diesel fuel. My dad had an '84 Rabbit diesel that my buddy ended up buying & ran until he died a few years back. Never a problem when following VWs directions.

I'm unsure how it could possibly "blow the injectors"... too much gas in diesel will detonate & "blow" head gaskets or in extreme cases, holes in pistons. I'm searching deep in the memory banks but also vaguely remember bent valves & a broken camshaft in a Rabbit that was attributed to incorrect fuel (gasoline) being used. Also unsure why one would have to "drain the tank before spring" as driving empties it, requiring a refill every couple hundred miles. Just stop adding gas when the weather gets warmer. There were also diesel conditioners available which accomplished the same thinning. STP & BG brands comes to mind, but there were others. It cost more than a gallon of diesel but was less of a PITA than going to 2 pumps when refueling. This is similar to having your heating oil company deliver a 25% kerosene mix in the heating oil during the colder months if your fuel tank was outside. I dont have to pay attention to that stuff anymore, but hope the oil companies have addressed the winter blend thing in more recent years.

Those gas to diesel conversion engines were a joke, but if you treated them right, they ran underpowered and smoking for decades.

If you pulled an automatic trans model into a bay that had the cup in the floor to locate for a lift, they couldn’t back out under their own power, needed a push.

When they got some miles, and possibly enhanced with gas in the diesel in warmer weather, they had a fairly high rate of blow by. They way the PCV system worked the engine would start sucking oil out of the crank case and the engine would run away. Shutting the key off didn’t make any difference because the engine was fueled by crankcase oil. They would run till the oil was gone or seized, which ever came first. Sometimes you could stall a manual, but autos were out of luck.

Then there was the deck height. Head gasket issue. Measure the amount the piston came out of the block, valves out of the head and select the proper head gasket to size the combustion chamber. Cut that clearance a little close and the first time someone missed a shift up or down, you floated a valve into the piston. Then it was a crap shoot on where the cam was timed whether you bent a valve, broke a cam, or imbedded the valve head in a piston. If you were really lucky it was all three.

Had more than one customer drive one in after filling with gas. Drain the tank, change the oil, send them on their way. Mechanical pumps and injectors were pretty tough to screw up. Then we figured out They would stretch the head bolts and develop leaks a few months down the road. When a torque to yield bolt unscrews by hand, it’s a good indicator of the problem.

Kinda like hand loading, you get away with a lot, until you don’t.

 

[358WCF]

Those gas to diesel conversion engines were a joke, but if you treated them right, they ran underpowered and smoking for decades.

If you pulled an automatic trans model into a bay that had the cup in the floor to locate for a lift, they couldn’t back out under their own power, needed a push.

When they got some miles, and possibly enhanced with gas in the diesel in warmer weather, they had a fairly high rate of blow by. They way the PCV system worked the engine would start sucking oil out of the crank case and the engine would run away. Shutting the key off didn’t make any difference because the engine was fueled by crankcase oil. They would run till the oil was gone or seized, which ever came first. Sometimes you could stall a manual, but autos were out of luck.

Then there was the deck height. Head gasket issue. Measure the amount the piston came out of the block, valves out of the head and select the proper head gasket to size the combustion chamber. Cut that clearance a little close and the first time someone missed a shift up or down, you floated a valve into the piston. Then it was a crap shoot on where the cam was timed whether you bent a valve, broke a cam, or imbedded the valve head in a piston. If you were really lucky it was all three.

Had more than one customer drive one in after filling with gas. Drain the tank, change the oil, send them on their way. Mechanical pumps and injectors were pretty tough to screw up. Then we figured out They would stretch the head bolts and develop leaks a few months down the road. When a torque to yield bolt unscrews by hand, it’s a good indicator of the problem.

Kinda like hand loading, you get away with a lot, until you don’t.

Those gas to diesel engines made me a lot of $$ for a few years. I did so many block replacements or other repairs that it was easy to about 1/2 even the warranty times. Nobody else in the shop wanted to do them. Line 'em up sez I.

They didn't run that terribly & didn't smoke at all when set up right. The guy that worked next to me had one & we fooled around with pump timing, shimmed the governor, & a few other pump mods on his. It ran like a raped ape, but fuel economy went way out the window so we changed it back. There were different pumps... I remember something about a yellow paint mark on the governor cover being better. Thank the EPA for some of that mess.

That PCV over-run on oil fumes thing was addressed with a rather simple & quick to do recall. The 4 speeds had more get up & go than 5 speeds due to the gearing. Yes, the automatics were pigs. My dad was getting 51-52mpg on the highway, & it wasn't terribly piggish around town. He loved it after the 1200 mile service when it was set up right.

 

[FTR_Mojo]

FYI. I described how I was using Flitz on a tight patch wrapped around a parker hale jag to Flitz tech support.
They said I would remove a very thin layer of metal doing that.

Kudos to @dellet for identifying that using a Flitz with a patch that way would tend to remove more material that using a nylon brush.​

​

For now, I'm using a nylon brush. Hopefully it removes less metal. It does take fewer strokes that using the patch.

Thats very interesting indeed. Thank you for pursuing some answers and sharing them.

It is quite worrying in some ways. It basically supports what frank and wheeler have been telling us, that abrasives do indeed remove metal and can not only erode throats, but also round off rifling.

But you've left me in a tricky spot....
I have found the advantages of using abrasives, outweigh the negatives... so far. I have no data to show how the life of my barrel is shortened, or indeed how it affects accuracy. But, the devil is in the details. If an abrasive like flitz does remove 'some metal' as per your reply from the manufacturer, its really important to know what that actually means. Is it a few microns? Or is it a thousands of an inch every 50 strokes..??

 

[jelenko]

Thats very interesting indeed. Thank you for pursuing some answers and sharing them.

It is quite worrying in some ways. It basically supports what frank and wheeler have been telling us, that abrasives do indeed remove metal and can not only erode throats, but also round off rifling.

But you've left me in a tricky spot....
I have found the advantages of using abrasives, outweigh the negatives... so far. I have no data to show how the life of my barrel is shortened, or indeed how it affects accuracy. But, the devil is in the details. If an abrasive like flitz does remove 'some metal' as per your reply from the manufacturer, its really important to know what that actually means. Is it a few microns? Or is it a thousands of an inch every 50 strokes..??

Remember, the response from Flitz was about my using a tight patch wrapped around a parker hale jag - not on a brush per their directions.

I did a quick experiment.
I spun a stainless steel rod for a minute in a patch soaked in Flitz that was held onto the rod with a soft jaw plier. The drill was spinning around 200-300 rpm. This was repeated 5 times each time with a new patch soaked in Flitz.

I took 10 readings of the area on rod before and after. The before readings were all .1174x; the after readings were all .11725 or .1173x. My conclusion is the experiment removed 1- 1 1/2 ten thousandths.

Not sure how that would translate to using a brush. But, using a 223 patch doubled over and wrapped around a parker hale jab seems like it could be about the same as only 8 cleaning sessions. [Assuming each cleaning session there are 60 cycles back/forth]