Cleaning with Abrasives and using Fire Lapping kits and warranty

[9146gt]

Heat?
Tom

 

[dakor]

Not sure where to post this so I'm going to post this on AS so going to put it on the main main message board.

This will probably start an argument but don't know what else to do other than to spell this out in black and white.

This has been kicked to death I don't know how many times but not just by me but by everyone when it comes to cleaning. I've posted pictures of what happens and the damage that can be done to barrels from using abrasives, using abrasives in conjunction with a brush and fire lapping barrels.

Everyone... when it comes to using an abrasive type cleaner you have to be very careful in how you use it. Improper use or over using an abrasive type cleaner either in a paste form or a liquid form it can and will cause problems. When and where and in what time frame we cannot put exact numbers on it. Too much is beyond our control being the barrel maker. We have ZERO control over what and how people clean barrels.

Same goes with someone using a fire lapping kit, Tubbs Final Finish or someone doing they're own finish lapping to a barrel. Again we have no control over what is being done.
You cannot expect a barrel maker to warranty and replace a barrel at n/c when something is being done to it that is totally beyond our control.

Latest example with pictures attached. Customer has less than 400 rounds on a 6mm barrel. Caliber is 6XC. He used Iosso bore paste along with Tubbs Final Finish to fire lap the barrel. How many times etc... we don't know exactly.

The first approx. 2" of rifling in front of the chamber... the lands are completely gone. Basically polished smooth. From the breech face of the chamber until you get about 6" up from the breech do you start to see lands. At this junction point the bore is about .2385". That's a full .0015" of material that has been taken out of the bore.

Tubbs years ago asked me to endorse his Final Finish kits. I said... only if he was going to cover the warranty on the barrels. The conversation ended right then and there on the phone.

The rest of the bore when you look at the lands there is no crispness to it. The edges are smoothed/rounded over. All points to cleaning damage. Sorry for the grainy pics.

The customer wasn't happy when we said we will not warranty it. He said he's done it to four other barrels with no issues. Again guys... we have no control over how much is done and how often and how aggressive. Cleaning is simply beyond our control in what a person does to the barrel. Maybe the company who makes the cleaner product should cover the warranty to the barrel/customers rifle. I'd like to see that happen?

I tried to come to a happy medium with customer and said that we would help with something but not eating the whole thing. it was a no go.

It's on our website under cleaning etc.... as well.

No fire lapping kits should be used in our barrels. This can damage the barrel and we will not warranty a barrel in any way.
Your barrel should never be lapped by anyone else other than us. Any individual or gunsmith lapping our barrels also voids the warranty.

If you want to play with or use a Fire Lapping kit.... I only say in a factory type barrel with a really rough bore and if your going to use it in ours... use it towards the end of the life of the barrel. Then I feel you most likely have nothing to lose if something should happen but there is no reason to use it on our barrel when it's new etc... if you think you have a problem with our barrel.... I'd prefer you call us and ask us for help before something gets done to it that cannot be undone.

First pic is at the case mouth of the 6mm barrel. Next pic is 6" from the breech face/approx. 2" to 3" in from the case mouth and there is no rifling. Next pic is 8" up from the breech end. Last pic is a few inches in from the muzzle end. It's just getting polished and the crispness to the lands is gone.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

Thanks for posting this Frank. I think one thing that would help people understand what you are saying is if you posted on average how tall the rifling actually is in your bores. When I talk to most people they tend to think there is lots of rifling material there and I think some would be surprised at how little there really is.

Anyone who has ever throated a rifle knows this in not the case at all.

I know a guy who was chambering a barrel for himself and all he had was a solid pilot reamer. The reamer would not go in the bore because it was bigger than the bore. Instead of getting a reamer with a live pilot and bushings he took a patch on a small dowel and put JB on it and spun it in the lathe for about 30 to 40 seconds.

That reamer now went in the bore and he chambered his rifle.

I might use JB if someone brings me a rifle they never cleaned or after a couple of hundred rounds down the pipe just as a touchup with a few patches. A few is all it takes.

Not to offend any barrel makers out there but if I have to lap a brand new barrel its going back to you.

Pretty simple cleaning process I have used for decades and I don't get carbon build up even on my way over bore calibers.

After 25 to 30 rounds or if its going to be stored I run a bronze brush down about 10 times. I will know when to stop when I see stuff not coming out the bore much anymore.

I run patches through with KG copper remover and by far its the best I have used. I have been using it the past 15 years. I let it soak for a few minutes run more patches and repeat until its clean. Run dry patches down and bore oil of choice and its done.

As for a nylon brush I will hear about this I am sure but those are complete junk. Anyone that I know that uses them and doesn't matter what whizzbang brand of them and I know lots of guys using them.

They end up with a carbon ring or build up and have to resort to the abrasives or chemicals to get rid of it.

If you don't believe me take a dirty rifle and run a bore scope down it. Than take a nylon brush and run it down the bore and scope it and see what it left behind.

Next time you clean use a bronze brush and do the same thing. You will see a difference of what was left behind.

 

[rwj]

Tribology is the study of the very complex topic of wear. My industrial experiences with this topic included some very surprising results. The most amazing was plastic (nylon) wearing groves into thru hardened RkC 60 steel plates with both immersed in a lubricating fluid! So…

Am I surprised by, or disagree with, any of the inputs posted in this thread? No!

Do I believe the inputs posted? Yes!

Each situation is unique and must be considered/evaluated accordingly. I can hear the popcorn popping in the background as I type this post! But if one expects warranty consideration from a barrel maker, I’d abide by their recommendations.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Depending on your thoughts about muzzle damage due to cleaning from the wrong end, the challenge is already won.

As far as proving it, I figured I’d just hand a brand new rifle with no access to the breech end and a cleaning kit with 10,000 patches and 100 brushes to a 10 year old and tell him to call me when it’s clean or your out of patches.

Are you talking about cleaning rod damage? I am sure that can happen.

 

[FrankG]

Thanks for posting this Frank. I think one thing that would help people understand what you are saying is if you posted on average how tall the rifling actually is in your bores. When I talk to most people they tend to think there is lots of rifling material there and I think some would be surprised at how little there really is.

Good question and to answer it..... I'll give a few examples.

6mm... bore and groove are .2370" x .2430". So each land measures .003" for height. For reference......

That's the thickness of a human hair!

30cal.... .3000" x .3080". So each land measures .004" in terms of height. Really thick human hair. LOL!

22cal centerfire... .2190" x .2240". So each land measures .0025" for height.

Those are Saami min specs. for most calibers. Yes in some cases we are tooled for tight bore barrels and that will change that number say .0005" to maybe a .001" for land height but still.... not a whole lot of meat there no matter how you slice this pie.

 

[dakor]

Good question and to answer it..... I'll give a few examples.

6mm... bore and groove are .2370" x .2430". So each land measures .003" for height. For reference......

That's the thickness of a human hair!

30cal.... .3000" x .3080". So each land measures .004" in terms of height. Really thick human hair. LOL!

22cal centerfire... .2190" x .2240". So each land measures .0025" for height.

Those are Saami min specs. for most calibers. Yes in some cases we are tooled for tight bore barrels and that will change that number say .0005" to maybe a .001" for land height but still.... not a whole lot of meat there no matter how you slice this pie.

Thank you. Now people should know what they are really dealing with.

 

[dellet]

Okay so I made a mark on the barrel so I could make sure I measured the exact same place.

View attachment 1705180

This is my initial measurement

View attachment 1705181

This is after 30 seconds at 1800 rpm. I figured this might represent a lifetime of cleaning with a patch.

View attachment 1705182

As you can see I can't get any difference it's beyond the capability of my my micrometer and my measuring technique to be able to measure any difference. I'm just going to assume it's exactly the same.

Feel free to repeat the experiment That's what science is all about.

Are you talking about cleaning rod damage? I am sure that can happen.

Nope, just pushing the brush 3/4 out and pulling back in from the muzzle end.

One second while I get this coin out of my pocket to throw it on the table. Your test is flawed.

Let’s start with the surface of the outside of your barrel used as a test piece is a much different texture than that of a bore. It will grab less copper.

Then move to the test itself. For it to be valid, you need to create the same conditions found in real life. To do that, you need to press copper against the barrel at an agreed upon pressure and spin it the speed of bullet travel at the same temp. Once you done this enough to simulate 100 shots, then you can start the actual test.

A true test is not simulating 10,000 strokes of a bore brush or patch.
A true test is with the cleaning tools commonly used, which includes abrasives, rubbing the steel until every spec of copper that embedded itself into the micro grooves and pores that can be seen at 10X is removed. Not saying that your test was pointless, more that this is how most people with bore scopes now clean. There is a big difference in stopping when you quit seeing blue on the patch, and not seeing any copper colored flecks in the borescope. It’s overkill.

For someone who is selling barrels to claim you can’t ruin a barrel with a bronze brush and a cotton patch no matter how hard you try, is inviting bankruptcy by warranty.

To properly understand how bubba can crack an anvil with a feather, you need to be able to do it yourself. Then when someone sends you back a barrel for warranty claiming you forgot to install the grooves, you have an answer for them.

It’s really not about how you can safely use the products, it’s more about recognizing when they have been abused. I have worked in product testing, I was paid to find a way to break things. I was the idiot they hired so they could idiot proof their products. It’s really a lot of fun.

 

[Syncrowave]

If it didn't remove any metal, then why did the rag turn black?
And why did the barrel get shinier where you polished it?
My hunch is that the answer to both questions is, "Because polishing removed some steel."
In fact, I'd betcha a dollar there's steel in that black stuff.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Let’s start with the surface of the outside of your barrel used as a test piece is a much different texture than that of a bore. It will grab less copper.

Then move to the test itself. For it to be valid, you need to create the same conditions found in real life. To do that, you need to press copper against the barrel at an agreed upon pressure and spin it the speed of bullet travel at the same temp. Once you done this enough to simulate 100 shots, then you can start the actual test.

A true test is not simulating 10,000 strokes of a bore brush or patch.

You kind of lost me. My test was to show that Flitz Barrel Cleaner does not remove enough steel to measure. Barrel bores, real life, warranties and copper and all those things, have no idea...

I used an excessive amount of cycles to clarify my point.

Part of me thinks if the test had gone the other way, a certain side that believes that Flitz eats barrel bores would not argue the validity.

Hey, I will say this... Maybe SOMETHING is removing material (like the carbon itself) but it is not the Flitz or the patch.... My opinion. If the Flitz is "removing" something it is micro micron level. Nothing that is going to show up on a gauge. The FIRE from the barrel will remove material long before the micro abrasive would ever show anything.

 

[urbanrifleman]

If it didn't remove any metal, then why did the rag turn black?
And why did the barrel get shinier where you polished it?
My hunch is that the answer to both questions is, "Because polishing removed some steel."
In fact, I'd betcha a dollar there's steel in that black stuff.

Fair enough.

That was the initial cleaning after I pulled the barrel from the bin. It was covered in metal dust. But I will accept what you say. Flitz does turn black when you use it. That is a fact. I have no idea the mechanism. And if you leave the rag on the barrel on the piece long enough it will show some shine (it will shine the machine marks---not remove them).

I was asserting that whatever it is doing, it is not enough to measure removed material even with an extreme number of cycles.

 

[ebb]

So I buy the best barrel made in the world (the top 4 or 5 maybe more that we are discussing here) and the maker has put his whole life into refining the process. In Franks case even developing custom machinery to do the job better. But their best efforts are NOT GOOD ENOUGH so I go buy snake oil lapping bullets to improve the process. Although I have never made a barrel in my life, I can improve on barrels that come from the companies the win national and world championships every year? REALLY?

 

[ebb]

https://www.bing.com/videos/rivervi...F47D729C5FE257B281BCF47D729C5FE257&ajaxhist=0 Maybe the guy with the water hose?

 

[jelenko]

Nope, just pushing the brush 3/4 out and pulling back in from the muzzle end.

How do you mean?
UR spun a barrel at 1800rpm for 30 seconds against a cloth with Flitz on it. Is your comment related to what UR did?

 

[jelenko]

Okay so I made a mark on the barrel so I could make sure I measured the exact same place.

View attachment 1705180

This is my initial measurement

View attachment 1705181

This is after 30 seconds at 1800 rpm. I figured this might represent a lifetime of cleaning with a patch.

View attachment 1705182

As you can see I can't get any difference it's beyond the capability of my my micrometer and my measuring technique to be able to measure any difference. I'm just going to assume it's exactly the same.

Feel free to repeat the experiment That's what science is all about.

I like the test but the micrometer shows .001 MORE in the second pic.

 

[dellet]

You kind of lost me. My test was to show that Flitz Barrel Cleaner does not remove enough steel to measure. Barrel bores, real life, warranties and copper and all those things, have no idea...

I used an excessive amount of cycles to clarify my point.

Part of me thinks if the test had gone the other way, a certain side that believes that Flitz eats barrel bores would not arguing the validity.

Hey, I will say this... Maybe SOMETHING is removing material (like the carbon itself) but it is not the Flitz or the patch.... My opinion.

I’ll just leave it with this thought.
If you have no idea how a product will be used/abused in real life, you have no business testing it.

To explain that, take more.
I can set up a test that will give both positive and negative results, so it really doesn’t matter to me. I will tell you, that you get more repeat business providing the results the manufacture wants to hear than not.

Again look at your test. You made a radial groove, then spun the barrel and polished in the same direction. Then measured either on one or bth sides of the groove, or straddling it. Maybe you didn’t even run the patch over the groove which would further invalidate the test. Most machining marks inside a barrel are perpendicular to the path of a patch. You polish with the grain, remove material across the grain. The way you test seems to have been done and measured will not meet the requirements for a valid test. Maybe if you can measure the change in the radius of the corners on the groove it will have some value. The test was set up insuring the best possible outcome for your point of view.

You’re looking at the glass half full, I simply chose to see it half empty.

Your thought that it might be the carbon, not the Flitz, is a change of thought and more along the lines I’m suggesting. It’s not the product as much as the process. A patch with flitz ran from end to end and removed before withdrawing the cleaning rod, will not likely be a problem. The same patch packed with polishing compound ran back and forth or on a drill packed full of carbon and copper is a different story.

But a single patch pushed through once will take a long time to clean cold hard carbon. Note the people not using abrasives get a patch down the bore ASAP, long before the gun is in the case. They could probably clean with a patch cores with anti-freeze. Same reason serious Blackpowder shooters either wet patch between shots or use a blow tube to get moisture in the barrel to keep the carbon from getting hard between shots.

 

[dellet]

How do you mean?
UR spun a barrel at 1800rpm for 30 seconds against a cloth with Flitz on it. Is your comment related to what UR did?

It was to his method of determining if you could ruin a bore with a Flitz soaked patch. I told him his test was flawed. And I could prove it with a 10 year old with 10,000 patches and a new rifle. He wanted to define cleaning rod damage vs bore brush damage. My position is a bore brush repeatedly reversing direction at the muzzle will ruin the crown in short order. Even faster with any kind of an abdasive or polish applied.

My position on this debate is really it’s not the products as much as the methods, so it am be argued and “proven” both ways. You can’t tell people that, only give reasons or examples to consider.

If I was a barrel maker, it’s much safer to say “no abrasives” than abrasives
Used properly. Kind of like the statement “handloads void warranty”

 

[urbanrifleman]

It was to his method of determining if you could ruin a bore with a Flitz soaked patch. I told him his test was flawed. And I could prove it with a 10 year old with 10,000 patches and a new rifle. He wanted to define cleaning rod damage vs bore brush damage. My position is a bore brush repeatedly reversing direction at the muzzle will ruin the crown in short order. Even faster with any kind of an abdasive or polish applied.

My position on this debate is really it’s not the products as much as the methods, so it am be argued and “proven” both ways. You can’t tell people that, only give reasons or examples to consider.

If I was a barrel maker, it’s much safer to say “no abrasives” than abrasives
Used properly. Kind of like the statement “handloads void warranty”

In my defense, I was only testing if Flitz removed metal. Not those other things.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I like the test but the micrometer shows .001 MORE in the second pic.

That's .0001 more. My point being that the gauge, and my technique, isn't capable of seeing any change.

 

[DLT]

I like the test but the micrometer shows .001 MORE in the second pic.

I believe it shows 1/10 of a thousandth more, is that right ?

 

[BountyHunter]

Having known Dave Tooley and his guidance for over 30 years, I tend to agree with him. Learned not to disagree the hard way. However certainly entertaining to watch this thread

https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExY2NlZWoxMmllN3ZtamdrazRocXNwYXVpNmp6Zm5nNHI0bGxhazF0cSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/NipFetnQOuKhW/giphy.gif