Cleaning with Abrasives and using Fire Lapping kits and warranty

[dellet]

In my defense, I was only testing if Flitz removed metal. Not those other things.

That's .0001 more. My point being that the gauge, and my technique, isn't capable of seeing any change.

New test if you’re really interested.

Put a lengthwise scratch in the barrel. .0005” probably wont hardly catch your fingernail, certainly can’t really measure it. Run your spin test again and see if you can tell a difference. Still subjective, but more life like.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

My position is a bore brush repeatedly reversing direction at the muzzle will ruin the crown in short order. Even faster with any kind of an abdasive or polish applied.

I’m not disagreeing with you, but there are a lot of shooters that say without abrasive’s it’s okay to reverse the brush as long as you don’t let the rod itself drag the crown.

 

[6MMsteve]

I've got no issues with JB Bore Compound (blue label) and I do use it once in a while. Never with a brush. Patch only. Also you don't need to use a lot of it. A little goes a long way.

I'll also use Rem. 40x cleaner or I think it's called Remington bore cleaner. For us old timers it use to be called Gold Medallion. Again never with a brush. Just a patch. Again I don't use it all the time.

I used Gold Medallion long time ago 1 time I never knew what I was doing prolly still don't

 

[dellet]

I’m not disagreeing with you, but there are a lot of shooters that say without abrasive’s it’s okay to reverse the brush as long as you don’t let the rod itself drag the crown.

Thats a little bit different, and not what I described. I mentioned pushing the brush 3/4 out, then reversing direction with the brush still in the bore.

Someone else pointed out the frequency that many top shooters who do reverse the brush touch up the crown. Kind of a sensitive part of the barrel.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

Thats a little bit different, and not what I described. I mentioned pushing the brush 3/4 out, then reversing direction with the brush still in the bore.

Someone else pointed out the frequency that many top shooters who do reverse the brush touch up the crown. Kind of a sensitive part of the barrel.

Sorry, I didn’t read all the comments.

 

[jelenko]

I believe it shows 1/10 of a thousandth more, is that right ?

Yeah. I was missing the first 0.

 

[243Lapua]

I got like 5 types abrasive cleaners collecting dust. Never used them. I'll stick to Accelerator or Butches Bore Shine. No issues.

 

[jelenko]

So, @dellet.
I've bought some stainless steel rods. I was planning to spin them with a hand drill against a cloth with Flitz on it. I was planning to continue until the diameter was 1/1000 less,
My objective was to understand how a bore could be 1-2 thousandths larger using an abrasive. [Ignoring potential affects on rounding sharp edges]

Would this be a valid test?

Thanks

 

[FNSafari]

So, @dellet.
I've bought some stainless steel rods. I was planning to spin them with a hand drill against a cloth with Flitz on it. I was planning to continue until the diameter was 1/1000 less,
My objective was to understand how a bore could be 1-2 thousandths larger using an abrasive. [Ignoring potential affects on rounding sharp edges]

Would this be a valid test?

Thanks

Flitz bore paste or regular flits? Why not IOSSO or JB which seems to be the most common, my observation, bore pastes used.

 

[J.d. Popkes]

If you got a system that works, keep op keeping on.

It must clean effectively and shoot well while not drastically shortening barrel life????

When you need a new barrel, go get one, or five.

Don’t be a Karen and go crying to the barrel mfr. if something goes awry.

Ya don’t gotta be validated.

Few will change their mind and change their ways as a result of reading this whole thread.

Use withes brew like a man and quit being such a girl!!

 

[jelenko]

Flitz bore paste or regular flits? Why not IOSSO or JB which seems to be the most common, my observation, bore pastes used.

Flitz the bore cleaner.

My plan was, pending dellet's inputs, was to do Iosso second if I ever got the diameter of the rod 1/1000 less using Flitz.
I guarantee JB bore paste will take much, much longer than either Flitz or Iosso.

 

[dellet]

So, @dellet.
I've bought some stainless steel rods. I was planning to spin them with a hand drill against a cloth with Flitz on it. I was planning to continue until the diameter was 1/1000 less,
My objective was to understand how a bore could be 1-2 thousandths larger using an abrasive. [Ignoring potential affects on rounding sharp edges]

Would this be a valid test?

Thanks

No. Not for this discussion.
It will only tell you if under the test conditions, if the polishing compound removes metal.

You would be better served by getting a barrel stub, even an un rifled one, and dropping pin gauges through at .001” increments until one sticks. Then using your normal cleaning process and see how long it takes for the pin to pass freely through.

What is almost impossible to recreate is the effects of internal pressure by applying external force. The pressure needed to force a tight patch down a bore, is tough to create holding a patch around a steel rod. This is another factor when considering the test. You will get different results based on patch fit and material courseness.

This is why I say, what results would you like, I’ll provide them. And why the debate will continue no matter what.

 

[DLT]

So, @dellet.
I've bought some stainless steel rods. I was planning to spin them with a hand drill against a cloth with Flitz on it. I was planning to continue until the diameter was 1/1000 less,
My objective was to understand how a bore could be 1-2 thousandths larger using an abrasive. [Ignoring potential affects on rounding sharp edges]

Would this be a valid test?

Thanks

It would have to be I say. Absolutely anybody can test this for themselves. I’m going to try it. No doubt Frank knows his stuff and he probably sees more barrels in a day than I will in a lifetime

 

[jelenko]

What is almost impossible to recreate is the effects of internal pressure by applying external force. The pressure needed to force a tight patch down a bore, is tough to create holding a patch around a steel rod.

Yeah. I was wondering about that.
Thanks

 

[jelenko]

OK.
Very unscientific. Net: Extensive use of Flitz does remove material from stainless steel.

Used 1/8" stainless steel rods from Amazon chucked up in a hand drill.
Spun the rod at couple hundred rpm 5 times for 1 minute each time in a patch soaked in Flitz. The patch was held on the rod with a soft jaws pliers. The pliers were held rather firmly. The Flitz on the patch was renewed for each minute of spinning.

To start, I measured the area that was to be under the patch 10 times with a Mit micrometer. All readings were .1174x.

After the spinning, measured 10 times in the same area. All readings were .1172x to .1173x.

My conclusions:

No question it will dull sharp edges.

From this simple, and perhaps gentle test, it would take a bunch of cleaning with Flitz to open a bore by 1/1000 - but not impossible.

All that said, I have gone through 10-12 223 barrels using Flitz/Iosso after every 50-100 rounds. The barrels maintained 1/2 -3/4 MOA accuracy [the accuracy may have been better but my testing is done from prone with a sling] until low to mid 3000 round count. So, for my purposes, the cleaning I do with Flitz doesn't seem to affect expected barrel life for 'cross the course' competition.
It's also obvious that this experience doesn't help those who are looking for the upmost accuracy from their barrels.

 

[X Count]

Sorry. I'm not getting the point.
I'm simply seeing just very little copper even though I'm generous in my use of abrasives. Since I'm not using the abrasive past the first three to four inches, if using the abrasive was increasing copper in the bore, it would still be further down the bore - yes?

FWIW. I thought copper in the barrel was created from roughness in the throat causing copper from the jacket to vaporize and then precipitate onto the barrel further down the bore.

Ill explain what I do and the situation I see more copper in.

Every 300 ish rounds using a jag and a tight fitting patch coated in KG or JB I'll short stroke the throat and then gradually progress to longer and longer strokes until I'm going the full length of the barrel. Go back to pro shot solvent and a brush and patches and remove all the residual lapping compound.

After shooting say 30-60 rounds and doing my normal post match cleaning I generally see faint copper streaks down the barrel with more at the muzzle. Very similar to what I see when running in a new barrel but these usually only require 1 or 2 soaks in copper solvent to remove. After the next match it will be back to normal.

Many would agree that there is an optimum surface finish to prevent copper. Too smooth or too rough and it will pick up copper.

I have a couple Broughton barrels that have a very coarse surface finish. For run in I unused HBN coated bullets. 10 shots, clean, 20 shots clean. The surface finish looks identical before and after run in but those barrels don't pick up copper. I feel that run takes more of a burnishing effect than a lapping effect.

 

[ELR LVR]

The new thing apparently is the routine ( like in EVERY cleaning ) use of Thorroclean to clean barrels. Being simply Iosso in solution, therefore an abrasive, how can that not be detrimental to a barrel over time? The boys doing it swear by it, though. Perhaps they haven’t been doing it long enough to see any negative ramifications? And I’m not trying to say that there’s no appropriate time and way to use an abrasive, either.

Exactly,
guys that love using Iosso, must also love buying barrels
Some of you guys try this -
Take your bright and shiny mirror polished barrel,
then rub whatever abrasive you like LENGTH wise along your barrel with a patch.
Then look at the striations you just put on your barrel with a 30x Loupe
Then multiply that by how many times you use it to clean your bore with

 

[Fuj]

Cleaning out a long neglected utensil drawer, I found some Brasso,
and a jar of Vito's silver creme polish. My mule barrels would be a
good test if ever get bored......

 

[Syncrowave]

Heat?
Tom

If my math (and the chatbot) is right, increasing the temperature of the barrel (due to friction) by something on the order of 100°F could cause a dimensional increase of that magnitude (one tenth of a mil)...

Linear Thermal Expansion Coefficients of Materials

Linear thermal expansion coefficients of common materials, including metals, plastics, and composites.

www.engineeringtoolbox.com

For just removing copper from a new barrel, I have found that alternating between Sweet's 762 and patches soaked with janitorial ammonia (10% ammonium hydroxide -- available at Ace True Value hardware stores) really brings out the blue copper FAST. (Especially the ammonia.) Just be sure not to let it soak in there more than 15 minutes or so, and be sure to dry-patch and oil-coat the bore afterwards to prevent galvanic corrosion.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

Barrels are consumables They my lose their accuracy because of
1. high round count
2.Under cleaning
3. Harsh cleaning
4. ?
Ask three different people and you’ll 4+ different answers of everything under the kitchen sink.
Pick your poison.