I want to ask a question that has bugged me for years. Reading around the internet when I first started shooting centrefire rifles one of the big subjects was and still is cleaning barrels. I myself am very picky about it and clean my barrels religiously, at the time I started out I thought they didnt need to clean every single time you took the rifle out but when I read up on it, most people seemed to clean there rifles weather they shot 5 shots or 50 shots, so I have always followed some times I come home and I only shoot 3 shots but I will still clean my bore, whats the point?????????? I know accuracy doesnt drop off in my pac-nor barrel until about 55 rounds so why not just keep track of how many shots I have fired and clean it whenever I get to around that total??????????Does anyone else do this, I cant see it doing any harm to the bore and it will help with first shot accuracy as the bore is still fouled which when you maybe only get 3 shots in a day first shot accuracy is very important, especially as round these parts that means a crow or similar at maybe 300 yards +. Also less cleaning means less chance to damage the bore with cleaning rods etc, I just really want to know what everyone else actually does, I think personally I am about to change my routine, I cant see it doing any harm and sure it may be a little harder to clean when I do clean it but if it means only having to do it once a month then I can live with it.
Cleaning barrels after every outing?????
- Thread starter Craigyboy
- Start date
Keeping a barrel clean is important but should not become a sickness. I find myself cleaning less and shooting more. I do however clean after each range session, regardless of how many rounds I fired before finishing. With the discovery of Wipe Out, cleaning is very simple and a lot less likely to damage a bore. Just foam the bore, let it sit overnight and dry patch it out the next morning and put the gun away until your next session. Guns with rough bores,ie: factory bores ) may require a little more attention but custom barrels require less work and clen up much easier thanks to the hand lapping. I'm sure you will get many different views on this subject and one may suit your fancy. Myself, personally I will err on the side of cleaning a little morre often in order to keep fouling from building up and thus becomming harder to remove.
Hi Chuckhunter
I have used wipeout myself for factory barrels but my latest pac-nor 3 groove does clean so easy there is no point, I do like a clean barrel but as you say dont let it become a sickness but I think it may have. I just want to see what everyone else does, just out of interest, I am trying to fight my sickness.lol.
I have used wipeout myself for factory barrels but my latest pac-nor 3 groove does clean so easy there is no point, I do like a clean barrel but as you say dont let it become a sickness but I think it may have. I just want to see what everyone else does, just out of interest, I am trying to fight my sickness.lol.
With me it depends on the rifle Im shooting. I always clean after every trip to the range unless its a factory gun that I sighted in right before hunting season,I like the barrel pre-fouled before I go). The custom barrels always get cleaned because the cold bore shot isnt off as much as it is with a factory barrel.
As for cleaning while at the range I dont get to carried away, maybe clean after every 2 relays. I dont think not cleaning the barrel as often really hurts anything.
I know some pretty good high power shooters that might shoot 300-400 rounds before they clean. I cant get myself to do that though.
As for cleaning while at the range I dont get to carried away, maybe clean after every 2 relays. I dont think not cleaning the barrel as often really hurts anything.
I know some pretty good high power shooters that might shoot 300-400 rounds before they clean. I cant get myself to do that though.
I'm one of those guys others talk about. I'm a clean freak. Paul, Eric, and I clean after every relay of every match shooting .30BR or 6PPC in 100-200 yard group and score match. That means I clean after 7 to 15 shots. I am notorious for not shooting many sighters so many targets come back with only 7 or 8 shots through them. Here is my regimen. Run two patches wet with GM Top Engine cleaner and let the rifle sit there while I prep and reload the ones that I've shot, then one more wet patch followed by 3 or 4 dry ones, then one patch dampened with Kano Lab's Penephite. This is colloidal graphite in a suspension of Kroil. I could probably shoot my first bullet down the bore for record but I don't. I shoot it for sighting.You can buy a gallon of Penephite for about $32.00 but that was a while ago, you check the price. Then sell 3 quarts to your friends and be left with a quart to last you the rest of your life and still have enough to lube the hinges on your casket. It's basically the same thing as Lock-Ease so use some there too. Once in the course of those five matches I will run a brush down the bore before I load and let that set for a while. We use bullets coated with WS2 Tungsten Disulphide or more recently with Boron Nitride.
I always clean my rifle after each time I go to the range. I like my guns to be spotless. I will scrub out the boor with a good quality nylon brush saturated in my favorite solvent and scrub like crazy. I will then patch out the bore until it is clean. Than I will run a patch saturated with oil to protect the bore and give the bullet some lubrication. If you do not lube the bore than copper fouling will be significant the first shot therefore accuracy will degrade quickly. If there is sore stubborn copper fouling that I will sock the bore over night with my favorite copper solvent.
B
B
Forum Boss
Administrator
For CraigyBoy,
Suggest you read the article on brushing/cleaning in which we asked for opinions of many top shooters.
http://www.6mmbr.com/borebrushing.html
From what I discerned is that the trend is to shoot more and clean less and minimize the amount of brushing and use of abrasives. If your accuracy truly doesn't go until 55 rounds or so, then I'd just clean every 50.
I note that MOST of the short-range group BR shooters still clean and brush a LOT, using bronze brushes. They have a very high standard of accuracy to maintain. Still, if you look at the trend of Score BR shooters running longer strings between cleanings, one wonders whether some BR for group PPC shooters will experiment with that too.
Joe Entrekin, 2003 Score Shooter of Year,2004 Runner-Up):
"I shoot Danzac-coated bullets and clean once per weekend--every 200 rounds or so. I haven't used a brush in over six years. Nearly all the top score shooters run long intervals between cleanings."
The BR for group shooters will adamantly and vociferously tell you that aggressive brushing does NOT shorten barrel life and there's no reason not to saw a bronze brush back and forth, even if it reverses the bristles on the edge of the crown.
At the same time, these same BR for group shooters are typically tossing barrels after 700-800 rounds, while short-range BR for Score shooters, who may go 40, 50, even 80 rounds between cleanings, are getting 3000+ rounds from a barrel. Makes you wonder, eh?
Is the longer barrel life,for 30BR score shooters) ONLY because of the larger bore,.308 for score vs. 6mm for group shooters)?
On my PacNor 6BR 3-groove, there has never been a brush or abrasives in it. After 700 rounds, measured accuracy is as good as new, and the throat has advanced only .003". I fully expect another 2000 rounds of good accuracy. At some point I may need to brush to get out stubborn carbon, but that time hasn't arrived yet.
Hey wait--the 6BR is a 6mm too, like a 6 PPC. How come my barrel isn't worn out?? Do you understand why I think aggressive cleaning may be a factor in reduced barrel life in 6 PPCs??
But I'm the first to admit that if you were to walk down the firing line at the SuperShoot and ask the 6 PPC shooters if they think cleaning contributes to barrel wear, 95% would say "HELL NO!".
If Mike Ratigan or Tony Boyer advocate cleaning after every group then I can't argue with that. Still, if you're not using your rifle for short-range BR for group shooting, there's nothing wrong with at least trying a longer interval between cleanings.
See notes above. When you "scrub like crazy" you really may be over-doing it. Likewise I caution readers that MOST bore solvents should NOT be left in the bore overnight. With some it is safe -- but read the instructions first!!
Suggest you read the article on brushing/cleaning in which we asked for opinions of many top shooters.
http://www.6mmbr.com/borebrushing.html
From what I discerned is that the trend is to shoot more and clean less and minimize the amount of brushing and use of abrasives. If your accuracy truly doesn't go until 55 rounds or so, then I'd just clean every 50.
I note that MOST of the short-range group BR shooters still clean and brush a LOT, using bronze brushes. They have a very high standard of accuracy to maintain. Still, if you look at the trend of Score BR shooters running longer strings between cleanings, one wonders whether some BR for group PPC shooters will experiment with that too.
Joe Entrekin, 2003 Score Shooter of Year,2004 Runner-Up):
"I shoot Danzac-coated bullets and clean once per weekend--every 200 rounds or so. I haven't used a brush in over six years. Nearly all the top score shooters run long intervals between cleanings."
The BR for group shooters will adamantly and vociferously tell you that aggressive brushing does NOT shorten barrel life and there's no reason not to saw a bronze brush back and forth, even if it reverses the bristles on the edge of the crown.
At the same time, these same BR for group shooters are typically tossing barrels after 700-800 rounds, while short-range BR for Score shooters, who may go 40, 50, even 80 rounds between cleanings, are getting 3000+ rounds from a barrel. Makes you wonder, eh?
Is the longer barrel life,for 30BR score shooters) ONLY because of the larger bore,.308 for score vs. 6mm for group shooters)?
On my PacNor 6BR 3-groove, there has never been a brush or abrasives in it. After 700 rounds, measured accuracy is as good as new, and the throat has advanced only .003". I fully expect another 2000 rounds of good accuracy. At some point I may need to brush to get out stubborn carbon, but that time hasn't arrived yet.
Hey wait--the 6BR is a 6mm too, like a 6 PPC. How come my barrel isn't worn out?? Do you understand why I think aggressive cleaning may be a factor in reduced barrel life in 6 PPCs??
But I'm the first to admit that if you were to walk down the firing line at the SuperShoot and ask the 6 PPC shooters if they think cleaning contributes to barrel wear, 95% would say "HELL NO!".
If Mike Ratigan or Tony Boyer advocate cleaning after every group then I can't argue with that. Still, if you're not using your rifle for short-range BR for group shooting, there's nothing wrong with at least trying a longer interval between cleanings.
B said:I always clean my rifle after each time I go to the range. I like my guns to be spotless. I will scrub out the boor with a good quality nylon brush saturated in my favorite solvent and scrub like crazy. I will then patch out the bore until it is clean. Than I will run a patch saturated with oil to protect the bore and give the bullet some lubrication. If you do not lube the bore than copper fouling will be significant the first shot therefore accuracy will degrade quickly. If there is sore stubborn copper fouling that I will soak the bore over night with my favorite copper solvent.
B
See notes above. When you "scrub like crazy" you really may be over-doing it. Likewise I caution readers that MOST bore solvents should NOT be left in the bore overnight. With some it is safe -- but read the instructions first!!
If some one can explain what damage proper cleaning does, I'll clean less often. I just don't want my bullet going through my barrel when there is deposit from too many other rounds still in there. I don't know if that does damage but I sleep better at night knowing the barrel was clean when I was shooting. I know Joe Entrekin well. He and I have shot with and against each other many times and we have discussed this very issue too often. We agree that we may both be right. Cleaning also occupies my mind and time at a competition. There is time for re-loading and cleaning built into the proper running of a 100-200 yard benchrest match. I choose to spend it concentrating on what I have to do to improve my game. I can re-load and clean and still have time to get back to the firing line with time to spare. Those who know me know too well that when I have time on my hands, I can only cause trouble.
Forum Boss
Administrator
FB,
First I would say emphatically if your current cleaning regime works for you and produces the desired results on the target -- that's what counts, and there's no reason to change. On sage observed "there are as many cleaning practices as there are shooters."
Also, common sense would say "how could slowly pushing a lubricated bronze brush through a bore be as destructive as slamming a jacketed bullet through it at 3300+ fps pushed by flaming hot gasses?" Hard to argue with that.
On the other hand, what I've observed,using a borescope) is that aggressive brushing will round the nice sharp edges of the rifling with time. Secondly, consider what the brush is doing. For the first few strokes at least you are driving a slurry of solvent, small carbon particles, tiny flakes of jacket material etc. across the rifling. Use of a liquid graphite slurry is one of the ways diamonds are polished, and diamonds are harder than steel.
My basic thinking, and this is only one opinion, comes from Gail McMillan. Gail believed a match barrel's maximum accuracy was when it is new, and that the accuracy incrementally degrades from that point on. Logically, then, ones goal should be to maintain the barrel in a condition as close to "new" as possible. That viewpoint suggests avoiding any process that will alter the geometry, edge sharpness, or dimensions of the lands.
I fully concede that in many instances barrels will experience a nasty carbon build-up, and if your solvents can't deal with that, then you need to resort to brushing.
That said, and with the exception of short-range BR for score,as to which I defer to the Hall of Famers), I think that the average shooter may be able to get by with a LOT less brushing, particularly if they use a good anti-carbon agent,such as GM TEC) followed by Wipe-Out.
Some smart people, including John Krieger, Tim North,Broughton Barrels), and Greg Tannel tell me that their observed inspections of barrels,with magnifying optics) show that aggressive bronze brushing DOES introduce micro-scratches into the barrel, and that reversing bronze bristles across the muzzle will, eventually, degrade the crown. Now I know many of you will say "HOGWASH -- a brush can't harm the crown!" Hey, don't shoot the messenger; I'm just passing on what these guys have observed.
Since I prefer to clean the "gunk" off a brush after running it through the bore, and it takes only seconds to unscrew a brush, that's what I prefer to do. I'm aware that the majority of short-range BR shooters think this is foolish and a waste of time. I personally just don't see the logic of dragging a dirty brush back into the bore. Going one-way only,breech to muzzle), also ensures that the brush bristles always remain aligned in the same direction.
But, I'll repeat--I will never argue with success, and if brushing after every group has worked for you there's no need to change.
I do recommend that novices actually shoot 40+ rounds without cleaning and log their observed group sizes in sequence, so they can actually determine, objectively, WHEN the accuracy falls off. They are often surprised to find that best accuracy occurs after 10-15 rounds, and accuracy doesn't start to slip until 50 or more rounds fired.
I recently talked to two very successful short-range BR Group shooters who've started to analyze their accuracy. To their surprise they found that they could shoot up to 50 rounds without the accuracy decreasing. Their current procedure now is to shoot a complete Agg,5x5 for record plus sighters) and then clean. Previously, they might clean every 10 shots.
But each barrel is different, and a wise shooter lets the barrel tell him/her what the best procedure will be.
First I would say emphatically if your current cleaning regime works for you and produces the desired results on the target -- that's what counts, and there's no reason to change. On sage observed "there are as many cleaning practices as there are shooters."
Also, common sense would say "how could slowly pushing a lubricated bronze brush through a bore be as destructive as slamming a jacketed bullet through it at 3300+ fps pushed by flaming hot gasses?" Hard to argue with that.
On the other hand, what I've observed,using a borescope) is that aggressive brushing will round the nice sharp edges of the rifling with time. Secondly, consider what the brush is doing. For the first few strokes at least you are driving a slurry of solvent, small carbon particles, tiny flakes of jacket material etc. across the rifling. Use of a liquid graphite slurry is one of the ways diamonds are polished, and diamonds are harder than steel.
My basic thinking, and this is only one opinion, comes from Gail McMillan. Gail believed a match barrel's maximum accuracy was when it is new, and that the accuracy incrementally degrades from that point on. Logically, then, ones goal should be to maintain the barrel in a condition as close to "new" as possible. That viewpoint suggests avoiding any process that will alter the geometry, edge sharpness, or dimensions of the lands.
I fully concede that in many instances barrels will experience a nasty carbon build-up, and if your solvents can't deal with that, then you need to resort to brushing.
That said, and with the exception of short-range BR for score,as to which I defer to the Hall of Famers), I think that the average shooter may be able to get by with a LOT less brushing, particularly if they use a good anti-carbon agent,such as GM TEC) followed by Wipe-Out.
Some smart people, including John Krieger, Tim North,Broughton Barrels), and Greg Tannel tell me that their observed inspections of barrels,with magnifying optics) show that aggressive bronze brushing DOES introduce micro-scratches into the barrel, and that reversing bronze bristles across the muzzle will, eventually, degrade the crown. Now I know many of you will say "HOGWASH -- a brush can't harm the crown!" Hey, don't shoot the messenger; I'm just passing on what these guys have observed.
Since I prefer to clean the "gunk" off a brush after running it through the bore, and it takes only seconds to unscrew a brush, that's what I prefer to do. I'm aware that the majority of short-range BR shooters think this is foolish and a waste of time. I personally just don't see the logic of dragging a dirty brush back into the bore. Going one-way only,breech to muzzle), also ensures that the brush bristles always remain aligned in the same direction.
But, I'll repeat--I will never argue with success, and if brushing after every group has worked for you there's no need to change.
I do recommend that novices actually shoot 40+ rounds without cleaning and log their observed group sizes in sequence, so they can actually determine, objectively, WHEN the accuracy falls off. They are often surprised to find that best accuracy occurs after 10-15 rounds, and accuracy doesn't start to slip until 50 or more rounds fired.
I recently talked to two very successful short-range BR Group shooters who've started to analyze their accuracy. To their surprise they found that they could shoot up to 50 rounds without the accuracy decreasing. Their current procedure now is to shoot a complete Agg,5x5 for record plus sighters) and then clean. Previously, they might clean every 10 shots.
But each barrel is different, and a wise shooter lets the barrel tell him/her what the best procedure will be.
You are right. On any given day at any given match a poll of the shooters regarding cleaning procedure will bring out enough answers that the person asking the question will leave the range scratching his head, thinking we're all a bunch of idiots. And we may be. I brush only after 35-45 shots and my opinion is this doesn't hurt the bore. Before brushing I first run one or two wet patches through the bore. I brush when the pure patching operation doesn't get the crap out. Some time ago Greg Walley posted some pictures of crowns on Benchrest Central Forum showing what was thought could be brush damage. The problem was that the scratches,my terminology) went so far out on the crown that one had to be cleaning with a brush with 1/2 to 3/4 inch bristles. We all know there's no such animal. I'm no expert and I don't know what caused the scratches but I'd bet my own dollar that it wasn't the brush
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
CraigBoy:
As you can see, there are varied opinions as to just how much cleaning is necessary, and how much borders on compulsive disorder.
Many shooters look to the Benchrest Community for advice on this, but this might be one of those times when what we do does not necessarily cross over to other shooting Disciplines.
Many of us do what we do because it is a natural process that goes along with the way we shoot matches. For instance, we go to the line, shoot a group, and then come back to the loading area to re-load for the next match. Cleaning the Rifle just seems like a natural thing to do, whether we fired one clearing round and five record shots, or wore the sighter out with 15 or more rounds.
I know a few shooters who have said, "to heck with it, I ain't cleaning after every group". And they do that, until they shoot a agg killer, then it's back to business as usual, even though the errant shots probably had nothing to do with the cleanliness of the Rifle.
I clean after every group, even in practice. I like the barrel to be the same for every match. But as I said, this is probably out of habit more than any thing else. We simply do not want to take the chance.
One thing I will add here, make sure you have a proper fitted bore guide. In my opinion, there are only two that are worth having, The Lucas, and the Nolan Barrel Saver. they are designed to keep that rod off of that bore.
If your brush will slide through your bore guide without too mush resistance, it is no good. The Lucas and Nolan have close fitting inserts that cure this.
Also, get in the habit of stopping that patch, or brush, the instant it clears the bore. That is where no bore guide will stop the rod from laying on the barrel. I see shooters at matches all the time using those big,long fast strokes, letting that rod lay on that bore for as much as 5 inches of stroke.
I have personally seen a great barrel stop shooting because of this. It belonged to my son. He had used those long strokes, and that barrel, which was one of the better ones I have seen, just quit shooting after about 400 rounds. Upon inspection, I could actually see then damage. I cut about 1/2 inch off, re-crowned it, and it came back to life.
If you are interested, this is my cleaning regiment. I run three wet patches,,I use nothing but Butches Bore Shine), then brush with about 10 strokes. I then run enough wet patches through to get the "brush blue" out, and let it soak whilen I load for the next group. Before I go to the line, I run a wet patch, then enough dry patches untill the barrel is dry. I do the same thing,all of the time, every time.
Just a thought from a Benchrest Sghooter.
.......jackie
As you can see, there are varied opinions as to just how much cleaning is necessary, and how much borders on compulsive disorder.
Many shooters look to the Benchrest Community for advice on this, but this might be one of those times when what we do does not necessarily cross over to other shooting Disciplines.
Many of us do what we do because it is a natural process that goes along with the way we shoot matches. For instance, we go to the line, shoot a group, and then come back to the loading area to re-load for the next match. Cleaning the Rifle just seems like a natural thing to do, whether we fired one clearing round and five record shots, or wore the sighter out with 15 or more rounds.
I know a few shooters who have said, "to heck with it, I ain't cleaning after every group". And they do that, until they shoot a agg killer, then it's back to business as usual, even though the errant shots probably had nothing to do with the cleanliness of the Rifle.
I clean after every group, even in practice. I like the barrel to be the same for every match. But as I said, this is probably out of habit more than any thing else. We simply do not want to take the chance.
One thing I will add here, make sure you have a proper fitted bore guide. In my opinion, there are only two that are worth having, The Lucas, and the Nolan Barrel Saver. they are designed to keep that rod off of that bore.
If your brush will slide through your bore guide without too mush resistance, it is no good. The Lucas and Nolan have close fitting inserts that cure this.
Also, get in the habit of stopping that patch, or brush, the instant it clears the bore. That is where no bore guide will stop the rod from laying on the barrel. I see shooters at matches all the time using those big,long fast strokes, letting that rod lay on that bore for as much as 5 inches of stroke.
I have personally seen a great barrel stop shooting because of this. It belonged to my son. He had used those long strokes, and that barrel, which was one of the better ones I have seen, just quit shooting after about 400 rounds. Upon inspection, I could actually see then damage. I cut about 1/2 inch off, re-crowned it, and it came back to life.
If you are interested, this is my cleaning regiment. I run three wet patches,,I use nothing but Butches Bore Shine), then brush with about 10 strokes. I then run enough wet patches through to get the "brush blue" out, and let it soak whilen I load for the next group. Before I go to the line, I run a wet patch, then enough dry patches untill the barrel is dry. I do the same thing,all of the time, every time.
Just a thought from a Benchrest Sghooter.
.......jackie
This is my opinion only when at a match i will clean my rifle with a nylon brush with butch's patch it out after every 5-10 shots and at the end of the match i will do the same but with a brass brush. But you will be suprised what that nylon brush will clean out i use a new one on every outting.:thumb:
I clean my hunting rifles after each outing and before I leave to travel home, regardless of whether I have fired 1 shot or 10. My main reason is to prevent corrosion in the chrome moly barrels, but apart from that, I don't think cleaning a hunting rifle is a critical as cleaning a benchrest rifle.
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