Clean cases compared uncleaned

[mikeeg02]

In my dasher, I haven't really notice the issue, but I always run a 22 cal brush coated with 0000 steel wool through the neck, EVERY time while its spinning on my prep center. Whether dirty cases or not. I've used an ultra sonic cleaner to clean cases, but only right before I anneal, and after all that I go through and run the cases down the coated brush on my prep center before I load them. I haven't noticed any issue whether clean or dirty. I seat with an arbor press and my bullets all seat very evenly. I do however clean up the case shoulders and necks with 0000 steel wool by hand. Not too worried about the rest of the case exterior, just to be free of debris. And I'd like to think my dasher shoots pretty good, if I do my part.

 

[Richard Coody]

Are you ensuring the primer flash hole is clear of tumbling media?

yep. that could cause problems. i found the wilson decapping rod perfect for clearing the flash hole of media.

 

[swadiver]

If forty years ago, most of us who reloaded would have seen all the hoopala that is made about case cleaning/tumbling these days -- we would have thought WTF??

Of all the things that I think of doing to enhance my accuracy, tumbling cases isn't one of them. jd

Bling

 

[Kcsoup]

If you don't do so already, get a notebook for each rifle you shoot and start taking good notes. All items in your load development prep need to be tested on the target to see what works and what doesn't. How you clean brass is one of the many variables that should be tested and once you have a process that is proven on the target be consistent with it and apply it the same when developing loads.

Good shooting

Rich

Thanks, I'm already taking detailed notes, testing notes, load data and processes, time of cleaning and of course bullet count, and whatever seems pertinent.

 

[Kcsoup]

Are you ensuring the primer flash hole is clear of tumbling media?

I inspect and clear any media in flash holes.

 

[jepp2]

When I SS wet tumble, it removes all the carbon inside the neck (and everywhere else). When I dry tumble, it does little if anything with the carbon inside the case neck. I would expect the expanding step/bullet seating step to remove more carbon inside the neck than the dry tumbling does. As others have mentioned, there are many things that could affect your accuracy change.

 

[Milo 2.0]

It's 2017, publications, the internet, you'd think we could come to a consensus on this. Myself, I'd tend to mimic what the top guys who shoot tiny groups at 1K do.
But no, we buy sonic cleaners, ss pins and rotary tumblers, and then we dry brass ,then lube necks, no consensus on lube used either.
I'm not laughing at anyone, I have a sonic, and I mean industrial sonic, it will strip brass clean including primer pockets in 15 minutes, I just cannot use it.

 

[mikeinct]

I'll add another fly to this ointment...I swear after using an old school Lyman case trimmer...I keep the fresh trimmed cases out of my match grade ammo box until I fire them in the rifle once...Mike in Ct

 

[Brians356]

The world's most accurate rifles shoot cases that have never seen the inside of a tumbler since they were new. Clean necks (on the inside) produce less accurate ammunition. The target doesn't care how shiny your cases are, but it does care how uniform the bullet release is. I prefer smaller groups to shinier cases, but it's a free country!

But, cleaning cases to a jewel-like gleam is one of our fastest-growing hobbies. You're just wetting their wings down.
-

 

[dmoran]

I'll add another fly to this ointment...I swear after using an old school Lyman case trimmer...I keep the fresh trimmed cases out of my match grade ammo box until I fire them in the rifle once...Mike in Ct

I respect that input !.!.!
But may have a solution for you; after trimming and a fresh chamfer, polishing the chamfer and case mouth can go along ways. I use fine steel wool stuffed in a nut driver (below) for the task.
Donovan

​

 

[mikeinct]

That steel wool stuffed nut driver bit looks too easy & cool..My Style.. Mr Moran..thanks...I still have concerns that old trimmer knocks the case neck out of square but, I wish I had thought of that trick...Mike

 

[Kcsoup]

It's 2017, publications, the internet, you'd think we could come to a consensus on this. Myself, I'd tend to mimic what the top guys who shoot tiny groups at 1K do.
But no, we buy sonic cleaners, ss pins and rotary tumblers, and then we dry brass ,then lube necks, no consensus on lube used either.
I'm not laughing at anyone, I have a sonic, and I mean industrial sonic, it will strip brass clean including primer pockets in 15 minutes, I just cannot use it.

I want to thank everyone for their input, I agree with mimicking what the top guys do. I'm lucky to have the 2013 World FO Champ living just a couple of miles away, I'm forever greatfull for his help over the last few months. The tinkering side of me believes I can do things different and better, I'll stick to what I've been taught because it has produced the best results so far. What I like about this sport so far is most everyone I've met at the range and online have been willing to help a nubie like me.

 

[JohnMill]

Why look somewhere else, this is a 6br tread. I forgot to mention I'm shooting 6br. If I'm at the wrong place forgive me, I'm new to this.

Hmmmm. I thought he meant some place besides the cases for th problem.

 

[Laurie]

This is a subject that has long intrigued me. A veteran (and successful) 600/1,000 BR shooter told me that on a subjective (results over several matches) basis, leaving a carbon film was preferable to clean metal having tried both. Then a couple of years back I demilled a box of 308 Win handloads in Lapua brass, new on its first loading, all loaded with 155gn Scenars. Using an inertia hammer-type puller, most of the box saw the bullet fall out after two or three taps, but a third or so took as much effort as if it had been military surplus with asphalt sealant, crimped case-mouths etc. The bullet shanks from these cases were discoloured where they had been in contact with the case neck.

I've always been in the a member of the just brush the inside of the neck and leave the carbon coating on school and happy with the results. However, I increasingly see posts from people on forums who say words to the effect of: "I always STM tumble / ultrasonically etc clean. I want every case to be as near identical to its fellows as possible and therefore won't countenance a coating of dirt that builds up." Personally, my opinion is that this is wrong, but that's what it is - opinion.

So to settle the issue in my own mind at least, I now have 100 Lapua Palma SRP cases ready to go, twice fired in the same minimum-SAAMI chambered FTR rifle with identical loads, neck-sized / shoulder-bumped with a Forster Bushing-Bump die before mandrel-expansion, but half with my usual carbon coating while the others have been ultrasonically cleaned to clean but dull metal. They will be loaded with my usual FTR 155.5gn Berger load to my usual match standards. (plus or minus 0.02gn charge and plus or minus 0.001" case-head to ogive OALs.) 25 of each will be shot off the bench at 100 shortly after loading, rounds picked from each lot alternately for 2 x 5 x 5-round groups past a Labradar to see if there is any difference in groups and ballistics. Then the remaining 50 rounds will be kept in the ammunition cabinet for a year and the test repeated in similar temperatures to see if storage causes any changes, and if so, does it vary between the two neck cleanliness conditions.

 

[mtang45]

Just curious, what do you folks that like to keep the carbon in your necks do when you anneal? Doesn't that burn the carbon out or at least change it in some fashion?

 

[eric n]

Just curious, what do you folks that like to keep the carbon in your necks do when you anneal? Doesn't that burn the carbon out or at least change it in some fashion?

It makes (my) seating pressure higher and inconsistent. I need to brush when annealing.

 

[Texas10]

My current process is,
Deprime
Anneal
Size using bushing die, .267 using Imperial sizing wax.
Run them through expander mandrel for consistency.
Clean pockets with Sinclair carbide unifier
Tumble in corn cob media for 1.5 hours
Trim if needed, chamfer with Sinclair VLD tool
Inspect cases
Seat bullets using Wilson Ultra seating tool.
This seems to be working for me.
I'm getting good groups at 200 yards,

You mention annealing as part of your prep work. My question to you is how do you anneal, what process do you use and what steps do you take to ensure your annealing process produces the same degree of anneal?

It seems to me that if there is a wide variation in neck wall tension caused by different degrees of annealing, it might surpass neck wall cleanliness as a producer of groups size variation.

I used to anneal by spinning a case in a socket in the flame of a propane torch, but I couldn't develop a process that I felt confident was producing a consistent state of anneal. So I switched to Salt Bath annealing at a closely controlled temperature. But because that process involves a water rinse to remove salt residue, I am now trying to control graphite loss from the neck, but not having a lot of luck, hence my question to you.

What are you doing in your process to control/preserve neck wall coating? I have noticed that by varying the time in the SS tumbler, I can leave some black residue in the necks. Is that enough? I don't know as I am not a good enough marksman to discern a process that will improve a groups size by .1 moa. So in that regard, am I just spitting into the wind?

As far as seating tension variations, I can't sense any in my 6br brass. I once took my freshly annealed brass and seated a 6.5 Berger bullet into the 6br case at the start of my loading. Never noticed any seating difference, went in smooth as butter, but caught it with the CBTO gage. Numbers were way off.....WTF? Looked again at the box, followed closely by a slap to the forehead.

My many years of competition (not in the field of shooting sports) convinced me that anything you can do to improve your confidence in your performance is worth TONS more than any gizmo you can buy.

Plan your work and then work your plan. There's a reason for the old saying "beware of the man who only owns one gun".

 

[dskogman]

Just curious, what do you folks that like to keep the carbon in your necks do when you anneal? Doesn't that burn the carbon out or at least change it in some fashion?

Yes it does. That's why I quit ultrasonic cleaning and annealing every time. I have some 10x fired brass that has a nice thick coat of carbon that shoots better than newer brass. Very smooth and consistent seating force. We are not talking 5 points better a match (20 shots) maybe one or two that are inside the line instead of outside. Plus it saves a hell of a lot of time.
PS I do anneal every 5th firing or so but I'm not sure even that is necessary

 

[R.Morehouse]

I did not read all the responses so if i am repeating this is why........Carbon in your neck is your friend. If you want to clean the outside i would suggest whipping it down with the " As Seen On T.V.".....Krazy Kloth...Works GREAT.

Regards
Rick

 

[Laurie]

Yes it does. That's why I quit ultrasonic cleaning and annealing every time. I have some 10x fired brass that has a nice thick coat of carbon that shoots better than newer brass. Very smooth and consistent seating force. We are not talking 5 points better a match (20 shots) maybe one or two that are inside the line instead of outside. Plus it saves a hell of a lot of time.
PS I do anneal every 5th firing or so but I'm not sure even that is necessary

My practice / experience to a tee!

Incidentally, Bryan Litz and the Applied Ballistics team look at neck tension issues in Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting Vol. II and found it very difficult to produce any ES/SD changes arising from neck tension changes in a range of cartridges of different calibres. At the time of the testing the AMP had just appeared and AB hurried to buy one in order to apply the benefits from a scientific and consistent methodology to this aspect of case care comparing multiple firings with no annealing to every 5th firing to after every firing. There was only time to undertake limited tests on a couple of cartridges, (and one had the wrong setting input so the results were scrapped) but in these cases at least this new consistent annealing technology either made no difference to ES values v multiple fired but unannealed cases, or in a few (annealing every time) tests actually increased them! I'm sure a full test will appear in Vol III, but I suspect that it'll turn out that many (most? all?) of these practices have much less effect either way than people believe - other than psychological ones on the shooter, of course!