No. If a round is 50fps slower it's going to drop more. A scope dialed in will not overcome the physics of it. Unless you are adjusting your scope for each individual round, in which case you'd have to know ahead of time each rounds velocity...which isn't really possible.
Chronograph? Why do I need one?
- Thread starter Thor357
- Start date
Muzzle velocity is depedent on the temperature of the powder in each cartridge. Part of the variance in muzzle velocity comes down to your shooting technique. If you line up your sights and close the bolt right before you squeeze the trigger, your ES and SD will be better than if you allow some rounds to cook in the chamber for 10 seconds while you are lining up your sights. I get better numbers when I have a scribe recording velocities while I keep my face on the gun and get into the "rifleman's cadence".
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
It is often said that load work (intended for distance) can be done at 100 yards.
TLDR: If you are still leaning... don't believe them.
Folks tend to take that roll with it.... only to come back disappointed when they extrapolate to 600 or more, and that is with or without a chronograph. The vast majority of folks reading here or who own reloading equipment cannot produce consistent 0.5 MOA waterline at 600 yards and their issue isn't having or not having a chronograph.
Folks without access to a distance range, like to hear that all they need is a chronograph and 100 yard range. It just isn't true the vast majority of the time. Visit a sight in range in the Rockies during elk season and take note of the midwestern travelers who have never shot past 100 yards. Their chronographs and wishful thinking surprise too many of them to the point where their shooting is horrible at 300 and beyond.
Statistics are against you when discussing anything other than an exact copy of a previously successful match rifle and recipe. That is the part this specific discussion that often either doesn't get mentioned, or folks ignore when they hear you can do load development at 100, (with or without a chronograph).
Not shooting at distances beyond 300 yards can be a huge problem if shooting well at 600 or more is the goal, and a chronograph is only a very small part of that problem.
If all that was required to be successful at 600 - 1000 yards was to buy an equipment list and follow a procedure... then we would have a very empty forum. If rookies make a meteoric climb, they are usually being mentored by giants and standing on those shoulders.
When new records are set and the state of the art is pushed out, there could be a very long discussion on the factors that led to the improvements, but the proliferation of good chronographs would be a very small part of the total.
There are prodigies in many things, math, music, art, poetry, athletics, etc., but the vast majority of folks are not going to achieve magical success without putting in their time. Even then, many folks will fail.
For an example, how much budget and time do you suppose we get to train and create a sniper or designated marksman? Not every soldier can shoot well enough, even when we hand them their materials. If we go a step further and teach them to load or compete in regular shooting sports, some of them fail. The lack of a chronograph isn't a reason.
If you want to make rapid progress, get to a range where the club shooters who do what you are interested in doing are running club matches and get a mentor. Copy what they tell you to do at first and worry about it later.
You will still have much to learn even with them telling you what to do, and how long it takes depends on you and your skills. The chronograph is a benefit, but it is not "the answer" to your issue.
You are asking good and valid questions. Keep at this and you will find your answers but be prepared to spend some trigger time learning to crawl, walk, and then to run with the big dogs.
At the beginning of your load development learning curve, focus on workmanship and being consistent, let the chronograph run but don't focus on it alone. Prioritize the target and be prepared to abandon recipes that fail.
You must realize that the chronograph is just a gage that shows you velocity, but it doesn't tell you what to do next.
Folks who stare at the chronograph instead of their target spend many more shots and time than the ones who watch the target as the priority and then also note the chronograph. Groups that are good at distance, by definition have good enough velocity,... but good velocity stats with bad groups are cold comfort.
Sports with sighters are one thing, centered cold bore shots are another. Always try to achieve both good groups that are on boresight... that study is a much shorter learning curve with a chronograph and climate tools.
Move to 200, and then to 300. Spend some time learning what wind does and how much you are willing to spend in between the issues of group size versus your shooting skills. Once you try to go past 300 yards and try to keep inside 0.5 MOA, you will then understand and appreciate the talent of the top competitors.
It takes loading skill, equipment management skill, and wind reading skill, as well as shooting skill, to pull off repeatable 0.5 MOA performance beyond 300 yards. Owning and using a chronograph isn't a bd thing unless you let it distract you from the bigger picture. YMMV
TLDR: If you are still leaning... don't believe them.
Folks tend to take that roll with it.... only to come back disappointed when they extrapolate to 600 or more, and that is with or without a chronograph. The vast majority of folks reading here or who own reloading equipment cannot produce consistent 0.5 MOA waterline at 600 yards and their issue isn't having or not having a chronograph.
Folks without access to a distance range, like to hear that all they need is a chronograph and 100 yard range. It just isn't true the vast majority of the time. Visit a sight in range in the Rockies during elk season and take note of the midwestern travelers who have never shot past 100 yards. Their chronographs and wishful thinking surprise too many of them to the point where their shooting is horrible at 300 and beyond.
Statistics are against you when discussing anything other than an exact copy of a previously successful match rifle and recipe. That is the part this specific discussion that often either doesn't get mentioned, or folks ignore when they hear you can do load development at 100, (with or without a chronograph).
Not shooting at distances beyond 300 yards can be a huge problem if shooting well at 600 or more is the goal, and a chronograph is only a very small part of that problem.
If all that was required to be successful at 600 - 1000 yards was to buy an equipment list and follow a procedure... then we would have a very empty forum. If rookies make a meteoric climb, they are usually being mentored by giants and standing on those shoulders.
When new records are set and the state of the art is pushed out, there could be a very long discussion on the factors that led to the improvements, but the proliferation of good chronographs would be a very small part of the total.
There are prodigies in many things, math, music, art, poetry, athletics, etc., but the vast majority of folks are not going to achieve magical success without putting in their time. Even then, many folks will fail.
For an example, how much budget and time do you suppose we get to train and create a sniper or designated marksman? Not every soldier can shoot well enough, even when we hand them their materials. If we go a step further and teach them to load or compete in regular shooting sports, some of them fail. The lack of a chronograph isn't a reason.
If you want to make rapid progress, get to a range where the club shooters who do what you are interested in doing are running club matches and get a mentor. Copy what they tell you to do at first and worry about it later.
You will still have much to learn even with them telling you what to do, and how long it takes depends on you and your skills. The chronograph is a benefit, but it is not "the answer" to your issue.
You are asking good and valid questions. Keep at this and you will find your answers but be prepared to spend some trigger time learning to crawl, walk, and then to run with the big dogs.
At the beginning of your load development learning curve, focus on workmanship and being consistent, let the chronograph run but don't focus on it alone. Prioritize the target and be prepared to abandon recipes that fail.
You must realize that the chronograph is just a gage that shows you velocity, but it doesn't tell you what to do next.
Folks who stare at the chronograph instead of their target spend many more shots and time than the ones who watch the target as the priority and then also note the chronograph. Groups that are good at distance, by definition have good enough velocity,... but good velocity stats with bad groups are cold comfort.
Sports with sighters are one thing, centered cold bore shots are another. Always try to achieve both good groups that are on boresight... that study is a much shorter learning curve with a chronograph and climate tools.
Move to 200, and then to 300. Spend some time learning what wind does and how much you are willing to spend in between the issues of group size versus your shooting skills. Once you try to go past 300 yards and try to keep inside 0.5 MOA, you will then understand and appreciate the talent of the top competitors.
It takes loading skill, equipment management skill, and wind reading skill, as well as shooting skill, to pull off repeatable 0.5 MOA performance beyond 300 yards. Owning and using a chronograph isn't a bd thing unless you let it distract you from the bigger picture. YMMV
Coyotefurharvester
Silver $$ Contributor
My tripod broke 3 years ago, so I haven't chrongraphed any loads,since. It has been very nice just selecting hunting loads based on targets(100,200 and 300 yards). I have a death grip tripod now, so the chrony will see some use this summer. Just not sure I will alter a good sub 300 yard load due to velocity deviations.
Interesting thread...I see people arguing that you really don't need one. But I will go out on a limb and say that there is no way to know what your exact velocity is unless you have a chrono/dopler. You need one for the same reason I do, that you can't know for certain what your velocity is without one as the COL effects the pressure. I have been reloading for 20+ years, and I don't see how you can determine what your actual velocity is without one. You can start with your min load and work up, watching the primer pockets, but you will never know for certain what velocity you're shooting at. This also holds true for common cartridges like 308 and trying to keep the velocity between 2800-2850 rather than pushing the velocity up higher. I think you guys would understand that better than most others as that is the sweet spot for accuracy. When you get down to subsonic it gets even more complicated, IMO.
So if you're comfortable listening to someone tell you that you don't need a chrono/dopler, I must be missing something as I can't see how you would know for certain what the actual velocity is.
So if you're comfortable listening to someone tell you that you don't need a chrono/dopler, I must be missing something as I can't see how you would know for certain what the actual velocity is.
A little story if I may.
A shooter here having just developed a 7mm Practical (7mm/300 Win mag) wanted to double check his iPhone trajectory app at 1000, a range we don't have a permanent frame for however further down the farm we found a suitable LOS to where we put up a temporary one.
After shooting a 3 shot group and inspecting it immediately it was recognised things didn't add up with said group 10" higher than where it should be. This guy knows his stuff and thought for a while wondering why when he remembered he had a crony in his truck but no tripod however with it just placed in the ground he could put a shot over it to find to his horror those loads were 50fps faster than his carefully developed max loads. It showed on this brass too with very flattened primers and a faint ejector swipe.
Then he picked up his 50rnd ammo box and carefully inspected his loaded brass and to his horror discovered he had loaded his partially fire formed brass. As he had older loads with him and they were in full power fireformed brass he went on to shoot another 3 shot group nearly exactly where it should be and 3" easily covered them all !
Not quite world class shooting but quite near it for a heavy sporter build.
That's why we own cronys.
Coyotefurharvester
Silver $$ Contributor
My chrony +,- error can be 20 fps with my 22-250. So 3580-3620 from a "target" of loading to 3600. Just in reading error, my loading equipment/technique or the rifle/components may induce more or less.
I had a Rem700 6mm that I shot from 1975 to 2009 with the same Douglas barrel. Maybe 17,000 shots. It had 3" of missing lands and fire cracking. It still shot under 1". I consided it good enough for GH hunting out to 300 yards. You never said what brand of barrel you have. At some point you have to decide if the barrel has any potental and quit throwing money and time at it. Sub MOA isn't even close to a good barrel or good results. At some point you have to decide how much time and money your willing to put into learning to shoot competitive groups. Most of the top competitive shooters buy many barrels every year looking for an exceptional one. In one of Erik Cortina's videos he said he is looking for an ES under 20. In Erik's video he says neck tension doesn't affect ES seating depth does. One of the top shooters says that for guys wanting to shoot competitive first concentrate on bench skills and wind reading then fine tune the ammo. All the improvent for me as far as shooting small groups came from improving my bench skills. Most of my cost is gas driving around looking for GH. Shoot some groups at 600 yards and get an idea of what you can do with present skills and equipment. Good luck have fun.
You can have low ES and still get big groups. I would a few shoot groups at 600 yards just to see what you have for a starting point. Then fine tune your best load? The problem with groups is most of use don't know if the group size is due to ammo, the rifle or bench skills.
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jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
I can’t add much to what Bart said……..except.
Why don’t more long range shooters tune the load for the best SD and ES and then use a tuner to tighten the group up as much as possible?
That would seem like the logical way to make use of a tuner in any Discipline over 600 yards.
Why don’t more long range shooters tune the load for the best SD and ES and then use a tuner to tighten the group up as much as possible?
That would seem like the logical way to make use of a tuner in any Discipline over 600 yards.
In this case the barrel is still doing it's job, even if 3" of the lands is missing, as long as it straightens out by the time it leaves the barrel, all is good.
Indeed, and when you complicate things with different twist rates and barrel lengths, it really makes it that much more difficult to know if your over pressure. In the 20+ years I've been reloading I have never had a chrono, and I have always found friends who would let me test me loads to get the final load dialed in nicely, but it's inconvenient.
I'm not trying to suggest what anyone else does, just that with dopler technology we have the ability to see what is happening over the course of flight. A chrono was very limited in comparison, it seems like outdated technology today.
I've always felts that if you shoot low pressure loads your barrel will last longer, much like a turbo charged engine in a car, it has more pressure on the engine when the turbo is on, that is it's job...to create pressure. You mentioned EK, and in a way it seems his tuner allows the pressure to be dialed in, even if the atmosphere changes. There's a lot of factors that contribute to the actual velocity.
This has been eating me up, because even though I am primarily interested in hunting, there are a number of safety factors that are involved. There's a huge risk in reloading, firearms are dangerous. Firearms were designed to kill after all...so I consider $625 to be a fair price to give me some comfort...It can show you what the bullet is doing along the entire flight, that's a magnitude better than a chrono, IMO. It is less than most people spend on a scope.
Jayplace
Gold $$ Contributor
If you are using a barrel mounted chronograph, how can group size and SD be accurately compared. Doesn't the chronograph being attached to barrel change the harmonics which would provide a change in group size?
because the MS acted like a barrel tuner.When I used a Magnetospeed on my barrel the darned thing shot smaller groups, that pissed me off.
Or your shooting an overbore cartridge.
Not as concerned about that as I am mainly focused on harvesting pig and deer and don't think I will be shooting that much, I mostly plan to use 8.6 blackout as it has way more punch in subsonic and supersonic will take med-large game in NA. At least anything I would want to take.
Only if I was hunting dangerous game that I needed to take at 700 yards would I question the shot, but that's true for any game I would shoot. I wouldn't feel comfortable take a shot at that distance on any game.
NorCalMikie
Gold $$ Contributor
Velocity?? Who cares? If they're all going in the same hole, ever see anyone out run a bullet at ANY speed??
The chrony is firstly a necessary a safety check. It's a pressure comparison check.
You compare your velocity to what the book says it should be, and decide if your load is safe to use or not.
Physical signs are not a reliable indication of pressure. People that rely on how the primers look and how the bolt feels seem genuinely surprised [ and blame the powder ] when the no-pressure-sign load consistently blows primers within one extra grain of powder.
Secondly, it helps identify which powder / primer / bullet combination gives the most consistent ignition, or shot to shot velocity variation, which is important for precision shooting.
Beyond that, it can also become a useless distraction that prevents you from focusing on the target results.
You compare your velocity to what the book says it should be, and decide if your load is safe to use or not.
Physical signs are not a reliable indication of pressure. People that rely on how the primers look and how the bolt feels seem genuinely surprised [ and blame the powder ] when the no-pressure-sign load consistently blows primers within one extra grain of powder.
Secondly, it helps identify which powder / primer / bullet combination gives the most consistent ignition, or shot to shot velocity variation, which is important for precision shooting.
Beyond that, it can also become a useless distraction that prevents you from focusing on the target results.
NorCalMikie
Gold $$ Contributor
BINGO!!
If you can't hit what you're aiming at, you might just as well go home and start over.
FPS??? Never seen anybody/anything out run a bullet.
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